Argus Posted October 27, 2016 Report Posted October 27, 2016 I know a lot of people have been talking about how Trump 'somehow' managed to become nominated to lead the Republican Party, and that once the election is over he's gone and the party can 'rebuild'. I don't think that's going to happen. I think the Republican Party has been molded into the kind of instrument that is ready-made for Trump, not by him but by the last few decades of cynical identity politics the party leadership has undertaken. If Trump garners massive Republican support by being racist, sexist, ignorant and stoking fears while making empty promises, why, how is that different than how the Republican Party normally behaves? Oh he's cruder at it, more in-your-face, but the party of Willy Horton, the party which has focused relentlessly on hot button issues like gays, guns and abortion, the party with no vision, no ideological motivation, and not a hint of moral or ethical values, was ripe for a guy like Trump. He says the election is rigged, that there's voter fraud everywhere? Why, so does the Republican Party! They've spent the last several years stoking fear of voter fraud in order to justify putting in place voter ID laws to deter poor people and minorities from voting. Every Republican state government has been beating the drums about voter fraud. So how is Trump anything new? The old Republican party sailed away into the sunset a couple of decades ago. What's left now is a collection of grifters who sell themselves to the highest bidder. The party of family values is led by a collection of sleazy adulterers, and the party base is just fine with that. The party of financial conservatives has run the country deeper into debt than it's been since WW2. By the mid 1980s the debt to GDP figure was in the low thirty percent area - and now it's over 100%. And what is the party of fiscal responsibility proposing? A whopping new tax cut and big new military spending! And the party base cheers. Because the party base is massively ignorant, and has been made that way by relentless propaganda by the blowhard talk shows and the Republican leadership which has sucked up to them without hesitation. Now they're stuck with them, a braying herd of wild-eyed extremists who demand absolutes because the party has been promising them absolutes and has led them to believe that's possible. No compromise is the demand of the base. No working with the 'unamericans' - which is everyone not like them. This isn't going to change when and if Trump leaves. He or someone like him can run again next time around and win. Because there is no room or tolerance for moderation or intelligent thought in the Republican Party. This election has shown as much. Put a little lipstick on the next pig and he'll probably get in, especially if four more years of utter gridlock in congress, and a poor economy make Clinton unable to accomplish much. 1 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 27, 2016 Report Posted October 27, 2016 Why mess with success....the Republican party has a majority in both the U.S. House and Senate, majority of state governors, and majority of state legislatures. After the 2014 mid terms, the GOP dominated at the state level more than ever before: Quote ...Last Tuesday, Republicans made historic gains in the nation’s state legislatures. The GOP now controls 68 out of 98 partisan state legislative chambers -- the highest number in the history of the party. Republicans currently hold the governorship and both houses of the legislature in 23 states (24 if Sean Parnell wins re-election in Alaska), while Democrats have that level of control in only seven. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/11/11/the_other_gop_wave_state_legislatures__124626.html Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
dre Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: 5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why mess with success....the Republican party has a majority in both the U.S. House and Senate, majority of state governors, and majority of state legislatures. After the 2014 mid terms, the GOP dominated at the state level more than ever before: Sure but the house and senate has been swinging back and forth because they are so fundamentally useless at getting anything done that they have a lower approval rating than a pedophile in a daycare. The republicans will probably lose the senate, and end up with a razor thin majority in the house. And your hero that you named yourself after (George W Bush II) wont even vote for them because party and their supports are so dominated by quacks, retards, Tea Partiers, and Trumpers. Traditional fiscal and national security conservatives cant vote Republican anymore. And even the ones that do admit they have to hold their nose to do it. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Moonlight Graham Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) Pretty good post Argus. I enjoyed that rant, especially from a conservative. The only way I see Trump significantly different from the rest of the Republican Party, and Democratic Party for that matter, is that he doesn't play the corrupt corporate donor shill game of the GOP. He has enough wealth where he isn't a puppet to the lobbies and wealthy donors that have significant influence on the GOP. Both parties are utterly dependent on them for money to fund their campaigns, because campaigns now cost many hundreds of millions of dollars every 4 years. If the Republicans are "honest" and don't take that dirty money, then the Democrats will and so it'll put the GOP at a significant disadvantage, or vice versa. The Supreme Court has rules that corporations are people, and that money is speech, and so of course all American "people" have the right to free speech. Trump doesn't need to play that game. The lobbies that fund the GOP want many favors for the huge sums of money they give them, but Trump doesn't care because he doesn't need it. This is a crisis within the GOP (as it was for the Democrats when Bernie Sanders became popular, and the Dems were clearly supportive more to Hillary). The GOP publicly rallied to stop Trump from being the nominee because they couldn't control him, he wouldn't play their game by their rules. As for the other similarities you mentioned, you make a lot of good points. What I think voters need to do is to realize who the real enemy is. And it's universal since the dawn of humanity. It's not so much progressive vs conservative. The real enemy of the common people is the powerful who wish to impose their will on them. Monarchy has become a plutocracy and the fabulously wealthy still run the show. Edited October 28, 2016 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 52 minutes ago, dre said: ...And your hero that you named yourself after (George W Bush II) wont even vote for them because party and their supports are so dominated by quacks, retards, Tea Partiers, and Trumpers. I'm already on record here refusing to vote for Trump...or Clinton. Canadians who worship Clinton over Trump obviously want more of the same U.S. domestic and foreign policies despite ranting OPs to the contrary. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) The GOP can stalemate a President Clinton by maintaining control of Congress. Even when President Obama had party control of Congress during the first two years of office, he squandered it on ACA Obamacare "health care reform" that is now blowing up in their faces. Democrats can better control the presidency because of urban center voting advantages, but fare poorly in Congressional races for the rest of "flyover country". Quote During the Obama years, we've watch Republicans earn their biggest post-World War II majority in the U.S. House. They also control 69 of 99 partisan state legislative chambers, and they control 31 of the 50 governor's mansions. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/07/24/one-reason-democrats-control-the-white-house-but-not-congress/ Accordingly, the GOP is far from being dead because of Trump (who got more Republican primary votes than Bush/McCain/Romney), and could become the "big tent" food fight that defines the Democrats already. Edited October 28, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why mess with success....the Republican party has a majority in both the U.S. House and Senate, majority of state governors, and majority of state legislatures. After the 2014 mid terms, the GOP dominated at the state level more than ever before: This Republican "majority" is based on states, not people. b_c, it as if you are saying that since the Maritimes (4 of 10 provinces) voted massively for the Liberals, Canada is a Liberal country. New York and California are solidly blue states; but they are only two governors and 4 senators. ===== Make no mistake, the Republicans are losing the "culture debate". Since 1992, only one Republican (Bush Jnr) has won the Electoral College - and barely. Edited October 28, 2016 by August1991 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, August1991 said: Make no mistake, the Republicans are losing the "culture debate". Since 1992, only one Republican (Bush Jnr) has won the Electoral College - and barely. And that's OK..."culture" does not get to vote. The majority of voting Americans are putting more Republicans in House, Senate, and state offices. The "culture debate" was purposely mitigated by the founders' constitutional design. If Democrats commanded such Congressional and state level success, it would be lauded as proof of a shift to the left. The last Republican, two term president only left office 7+ years ago. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: And that's OK..."culture" does not get to vote. Ask any politician: If you lose the culture/identity vote, if you're on the wrong side of a wedge issue, you lose. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 13 minutes ago, August1991 said: Ask any politician: If you lose the culture/identity vote, if you're on the wrong side of a wedge issue, you lose. Got no problem with that...so please reconcile with the recent GOP success vis-a-vis the OP. Republicans are.....winning. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: .... The majority of voting Americans are putting more Republicans in House, Senate, and state offices. The "culture debate" was purposely mitigated by the founders' constitutional design. If Democrats commanded such Congressional and state level success, it would be lauded as proof of a shift to the left. The last Republican, two term president only left office 7+ years ago. He barely won, and he had the benefit of name recognition - like your next President. ==== b_c, if you cannot see how the US has shifted left in voting patterns over the past few decades, you are blind. More curious is the success of knowns: since 1988 (for 9 cycles?), two families largely dominate US presidential politics. There's a whiff of third world in Trump's candidacy but Bush/Clinton seals the deal. As many foreigners are wondering, in a country of 350 million.... Edited October 28, 2016 by August1991 Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, August1991 said: He barely won, and he had the benefit of name recognition - like your next President. JFK "barely won" as well...big deal. Clinton didn't even have a majority of votes in 1992. Winning is...winning. Just ask Charlie Sheen. Quote b_c, if you cannot see how the US has shifted left in voting patterns over the past few decades, you are blind. U.S. urban centers have shifted to the left, not the majority of voting districts and precincts. If you cannot see the party office(s) count above, then you are blind as well....or choose to ignore reality. Canada has had the same Head of State for over 60 years. Edited October 28, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, Argus said: ... If Trump garners massive Republican support by being racist, sexist, ignorant and stoking fears while making empty promises, why, how is that different than how the Republican Party normally behaves? Oh he's cruder at it, more in-your-face, but the party of Willy Horton, the party which has focused relentlessly on hot button issues like gays, guns and abortion, the party with no vision, no ideological motivation, and not a hint of moral or ethical values... Argus, I have no desire to defend Donald Trump. But you are describing him from a CBC/BBC/The Guardian/Radio-Canada/NYT perspective. To use two words from the CBC/BBC/The Guardian/Radio-Canada/NYT lexicon to describe my view of what they do: their "worldview" is not "sustainable". IME, people in the real world have a different view of life. Edited October 28, 2016 by August1991 Quote
August1991 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: JFK "barely won" as well...big deal. Clinton didn't even have a majority of votes in 1992..... U.S. urban centers have shifted to the left, not the majority of voting districts and precincts.... ... Fu*k I hate this forum software.... JFK? That was 60 years ago. Ross Perot? He attracted the "untraditional/independent" voters. ===== I predict that Hillary Rodham Clinton will get 49% of the popular vote, Trump will get 42%, Johnson 7% and the Green Woman 2%. With such numbers in 2016, the Left has won the culture war. But their victory, like the Soviet Union, is not sustainable. Edited October 28, 2016 by August1991 Cannot post... Quote
?Impact Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 5 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Clinton didn't even have a majority of votes in 1992. Yes having a real third option did change the results in 1992, but you forgot to mention that Clinton had almost 6 million more votes than the closet rival (Bush Sr.). Contrast that to 2000 where Bush Jr. won with over a half million votes less than Gore, and I think the point is clear that the Republicans are having a hard time reaching a lot of Americans. Quote
?Impact Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 5 hours ago, August1991 said: I predict that Hillary Rodham Clinton will get 49% of the popular vote, Trump will get 42%, Johnson 7% and the Green Woman 2%. Have you been watching in the past couple of weeks? Johnson has been bleeding votes to mostly Trump, but some to Clinton as well. I expect he will finish with about 5% or less. Quote
eyeball Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 5 hours ago, August1991 said: b_c, if you cannot see how the US has shifted left in voting patterns over the past few decades, you are blind. Voters haven't shifted left, not even close. They're merely tapping the brakes on the Republican stampede to the right. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, ?Impact said: and I think the point is clear that the Republicans are having a hard time reaching a lot of Americans. Recent congressional and state election outcomes say otherwise. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Why mess with success....the Republican party has a majority in both the U.S. House and Senate, majority of state governors, and majority of state legislatures. I simply lament that there is no conservative party or any party with conservative beliefs in the western world's largest democracy. Edited October 28, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 15 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: Pretty good post Argus. I enjoyed that rant, especially from a conservative. The only way I see Trump significantly different from the rest of the Republican Party, and Democratic Party for that matter, is that he doesn't play the corrupt corporate donor shill game of the GOP. He has enough wealth where he isn't a puppet to the lobbies and wealthy donors that have significant influence on the GOP. From the perspective of the ordinary person that hardly matters, since his motivations appear to run in sync with theirs. He is, for example, desirous of massive tax cuts which will largely benefit the wealthy and corporate America. And clearly he isn't independent or he wouldn't be lying about his beliefs in areas like abortion in order to please the so-called Christian lobby, and insisting he will only appoint judges who are anti-abortion. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 15 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I'm already on record here refusing to vote for Trump...or Clinton. Canadians who worship Clinton over Trump obviously want more of the same U.S. domestic and foreign policies despite ranting OPs to the contrary. Clinton is more conservative than Trump. And a good deal more competent. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: And that's OK..."culture" does not get to vote. The majority of voting Americans are putting more Republicans in House, Senate, and state offices. The "culture debate" was purposely mitigated by the founders' constitutional design. If Democrats commanded such Congressional and state level success, it would be lauded as proof of a shift to the left. The success of Republicans is more due to big money than any shift to 'the right' since the Republican party is not actually on the right. It is the big money party, the party of the wealthy elites. Its only motivation over the past twenty five years has been to cut taxes for the wealthy and corporations as much as possible while also cutting government services to the poor and middle class, cutting infrastructure, and cutting defense. It HAS no other motivation or policies. It's members eagerly take the money of their wealthy masters, and await the day they quit politics and get their personal financial rewards. The most honest thing Trump said was "I love the uneducated". It is to them the Republicans appeal, largely with hot button issues like abortion, gun control, gays and crime, none of which they have had any real impact upon. Edited October 28, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Got no problem with that...so please reconcile with the recent GOP success vis-a-vis the OP. Republicans are.....winning. But for what reason? They're not good for America. They' have no particular vision. There is nothing they want to accomplish other than cut taxes and services in order to benefit their wealthy masters. Why would you rejoice in that? Edited October 28, 2016 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 28, 2016 Author Report Posted October 28, 2016 7 hours ago, August1991 said: Argus, I have no desire to defend Donald Trump. But you are describing him from a CBC/BBC/The Guardian/Radio-Canada/NYT perspective. To use two words from the CBC/BBC/The Guardian/Radio-Canada/NYT lexicon to describe my view of what they do: their "worldview" is not "sustainable". IME, people in the real world have a different view of life. I'm not sure what you're getting at other than to suggest their view of him is based on some sort of bias. However, I do not share the bias of these people and cannot by any stretch of the imagination be termed 'politically correct'. I despise Trump because of his willful ignorance and crude meanness, not his lack of political correctness. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2016 Report Posted October 28, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Argus said: But for what reason? They're not good for America. They're have no particular vision. There is nothing they want to accomplish other than cut taxes and services in order to benefit their wealthy masters. Why would you rejoice in that? Independent thinking Americans do not need or desire "vision" from others....the U.S. is not Canada, but has "accomplished" far more. I "rejoice" in that, while some in Canada worry about changes to the very thing they criticize about U.S. politics and "culture". Edited October 28, 2016 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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