Argus Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 It's pretty easy to square the circle. He's for religious freedom as well as gender equality. But this particular religion refuses to accept gender equality in any sense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Also, nobody here has explained how being confrontational or shunning those you disagree with works to change their minds or attitudes. Care to tackle that? How about you tackle how agreeing with, supporting and congratulating them on what they're doing is going to change their minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 But this particular religion refuses to accept gender equality in any sense at all. The particular mosque is only gender segregated during prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Nobody ever gets 'changed just like that' unless under threat of death. Nobody changes because everyone around them makes frowny faces either. Actually that is what causes change. When everyone expresses approval of what you do why would you even think of changing? But when society around you says what you're doing is antiquated and wrong then you have to start thinking about it, if only to summon up a defense. You need to justify it to yourself in order to justify it to others. That will only reinforce the belief in some, but it will get others to start questioning whether they might be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 The particular mosque is only gender segregated during prayer. This particular mosque has embraced the Islamic concept of segregation. Under Islamic law, it is not permissible for men and women to freely mix or socialize with non Mahram men under any circumstances. Islamic scholars are unanimous on this matter because the prophet of Islam left behind his words: “I have not left behind me any temptation more harmful for men than women” https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Sex_Segregation_in_Islam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Go and try. When someone is so deep in its beliefs, no one else can change that person than itself. Don't get me wrong. Of course we must consider them as human being. Just in case one of them may change. The point is that respect is not enough. First, you must find out how they were drag into that mindset. Then you will figure out what you can try. It does not mean you will succeed. People convert in and out of religions and other beliefs all the time ... Even very extreme beliefs. True, the only method that is most likely to succeed is conversion by the sword. Other than that you have methods that employ disrespect and intolerance (namecalling, shunning, overt disapproval, ridiculing, demonizing) and methods that emplot respect, tolerance, showing by example. Which do you suppose works better? And no, you don't have to know why they were 'dragged into that mindset'. You only need show them whats available to them and how it differs (and is better) than their current belief. I spent a few years going door-to-door and converting people can be done by employing respect and patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 People convert in and out of religions and other beliefs all the time ... Even very extreme beliefs. True, the only method that is most likely to succeed is conversion by the sword. Other than that you have methods that employ disrespect and intolerance (namecalling, shunning, overt disapproval, ridiculing, demonizing) and methods that emplot respect, tolerance, showing by example. Which do you suppose works better? And no, you don't have to know why they were 'dragged into that mindset'. You only need show them whats available to them and how it differs (and is better) than their current belief. I spent a few years going door-to-door and converting people can be done by employing respect and patience. What's the penalty for Apostasy under Islamic Law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochy Posted September 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 The particular mosque is only gender segregated during prayer. O, well then... How many more ways do you think you can split that hair? Yes, our ultra feminist PM decided it was ok because the mosque is only segregated during prayer...right. It isn't about the mosque, it's about him and his followers, you have no real principles, you stand for nothing and your willing to go that far to defend it. I'm embarrassed for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 O, well then... How many more ways do you think you can split that hair? Yes, our ultra feminist PM decided it was ok because the mosque is only segregated during prayer...right. It isn't about the mosque, it's about him and his followers, you have no real principles, you stand for nothing and your willing to go that far to defend it. I'm embarrassed for you. Islam's segregation goes beyond the mosque. Don't let that false statement fool you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Actually that is what causes change. When everyone expresses approval of what you do why would you even think of changing? But when society around you says what you're doing is antiquated and wrong then you have to start thinking about it, if only to summon up a defense. You need to justify it to yourself in order to justify it to others. That will only reinforce the belief in some, but it will get others to start questioning whether they might be wrong. Really Argus? What happens when you are told you are wrong? Do you take a new look at the evidence and realize your mistake? Or do you become even more convinced of your rightness? How often have you changed minds by telling people how wrong they are? Certainly the way you throw around the word progressives like we're idiots worthy only of ridicule has made me largely discount what you say, even if I do read it. Recently one person on here has made me re-examine my beliefs about a topic. His post was logical and made sense and was presented without any disrespect or name calling till the very end. When I called him on the disrespect, he apologized and removed that portion. He treated me with respect and while I might not entirely agree with him, I'm at least open to what he has to say on this and other topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Really Argus? What happens when you are told you are wrong? Do you take a new look at the evidence and realize your mistake? Or do you become even more convinced of your rightness? When I have to argue a position that means I have to justify it. Justifying it means looking at the evidence, which has, at times caused me to reconsider my position. How often have you changed minds by telling people how wrong they are? More often than you've changed minds by telling people how right they are. Certainly the way you throw around the word progressives like we're idiots worthy only of ridicule has made me largely discount what you say, even if I do read it. The reason I call progressives idiots is because of their usually idiotic positions, which are rarely supported by evidence or logic, and the generally unpleasant nature of their often shrill and insulting defense of those idiotic positions. Rarely do I find one who deserves to be treated with much respect, given their own behaviour and illogic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 The reason I call progressives idiots is because of their usually idiotic positions, which are rarely supported by evidence or logic, and the generally unpleasant nature of their often shrill and insulting defense of those idiotic positions. Rarely do I find one who deserves to be treated with much respect, given their own behaviour and illogic. That pretty much describes how I feel about people such as yourself, DoP, Taxme, Poochy, and a couple of others. But I don't feel that way about all conservatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 That pretty much describes how I feel about people such as yourself, DoP, Taxme, Poochy, and a couple of others. But I don't feel that way about all conservatives. If that is the case why do you feed the beast, by posting response after response to their comments....Is their a monthly prize for post count. If there is such dislike for the people your mentioned, then why not ignore them....Perhaps they are posting material that actually is a threat to your position....I don't know perhaps you can explain.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 If that is the case why do you feed the beast, by posting response after response to their comments....Is their a monthly prize for post count. If there is such dislike for the people your mentioned, then why not ignore them....Perhaps they are posting material that actually is a threat to your position....I don't know perhaps you can explain.... You are right I should not respond at all and I only rarely respond to some of them. My sister is Muslim and I know neither her nor her family are barbaric or backward, nor do they belive non-Muslims and apostates should be executed. To some extent I feel I am defending them as individual people instead of some mindless monolith called "Islam" bent on destruction. That is why I have a tendency to post in these topics. But I agree it is pointless and I shouldn't bother. I have learned aome interesting hostorical stuff, but I haven't had my basic belief challenged that all humans have the capability of barbarism, that religion brings out the worst in us, as well as the best, that we in the West have no moral high ground over anyone else, we are merely currently more progressed than other regions. They may or may not catch up; we may or may not regress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 People convert in and out of religions and other beliefs all the time ... Even very extreme beliefs. True, the only method that is most likely to succeed is conversion by the sword. Other than that you have methods that employ disrespect and intolerance (namecalling, shunning, overt disapproval, ridiculing, demonizing) and methods that emplot respect, tolerance, showing by example. Which do you suppose works better? And no, you don't have to know why they were 'dragged into that mindset'. You only need show them whats available to them and how it differs (and is better) than their current belief. I spent a few years going door-to-door and converting people can be done by employing respect and patience. This is where I desagree the most with you. If you do not understand how people fall into that trap, you will not be able to figure out how to help them. You are not attacking the problem at the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 When our PM delivers his speech at the UN, he could use his experience at the mosque to show how diverse and accommodating Canada is toward minorities. It could show that with the resources we're pouring into peacekeeping these measures make us a prime candidate for a seat at the Security Council. Then JT can work on his objective of transforming the world into an oasis of peace. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will use his speech to the United Nations General Assembly next week to present his plan for a more prosperous and peaceful world — positioning Canada as worthy of a seat on the UN Security Council. During two days of meetings in New York City, Trudeau will focus heavily on the global refugee and migrant crisis. Trudeau will arrive armed with a track record of successfully welcoming more than 25,000 Syrian refugees to Canada and a commitment to send Canadian troops to join UN-led peacekeeping efforts, most likely in Africa. All of that fuels one of Canada's main goals during this trip — to present Trudeau as a significant progressive leader on the world stage and make the case that the Security Council needs Canada's perspective around the table. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-united-nations-security-council-1.3764441 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) This is where I desagree the most with you. If you do not understand how people fall into that trap, you will not be able to figure out how to help them. You are not attacking the problem at the source.Please explain how knowing where my beliefs arose would change your approach, if you wanted to change my mind about something. Examples appreciated and may help me understand why you think this way. Thanks. Edited September 16, 2016 by dialamah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Please explain how knowing where my beliefs arose would change your approach, if you wanted to change my mind about something. Examples appreciated and may help me understand why you think this way. Thanks. Alot of youth are going to fight for Isis and most of the time, they are just being brainswashed. But the most weird part of it, they are easy targets because of our own western capitalist mentality. Those young men are poor, low level of education, or if they are educated, they feel that there are victims of discrimination (and sometimes it's really true), they feel that they will never access to the dream life we are so encourage to target. Isis offers them a car, a wife, a house and all they have to do in return, is fight for a cause. If we know in advance how the propagandists are going to influence them, we can give them what they need to have a critical opinion about it and make the right choice. I am giving you an extreme example but, the principle goes for anyone. The knowledge has always been a factor that decrease the belief in a religion, any of them. But once someone has drop into a mindset, it is more difficult to get that person out of it. Without a good basis of objectivity, one will just see anything in contradiction of its standing point as a challenge of its own integrity. They belong to a family and what they experience is more important than any other consequences of their actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 When our PM delivers his speech at the UN, he could use his experience at the mosque to show how diverse and accommodating Canada is toward minorities. It could show that with the resources we're pouring into peacekeeping these measures make us a prime candidate for a seat at the Security Council. Then JT can work on his objective of transforming the world into an oasis of peace. He should pop in to Bountiful for a visit, too, to bolster his position as a champion for religious freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderfish Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 His explanation won't change my mind, but as a show of respect for his supposed feminist ideals he should at least acknowledge the elephant in the room (or the elephant standing in the back row, in this case.) This is the problem I have with this as well. It appears to be a glaring example of hypocrisy and I'm not sure how he would manage to compose an explanation that would acknowledge his apparent double-standard. The "sisters upstairs" would likely be okay with it however, if they were told to be. Like it would matter; it's not like people would accept any explanation anyway. Also, nobody here has explained how being confrontational or shunning those you disagree with works to change their minds or attitudes. Care to tackle that? It doesn't align with Canadian values, our PM should not be shown as supporting of such misogynistic attitudes, particularly a PM who breathlessly brags up his feminist motivations. Its kind of amazing (however not that surprising) that our PM either can't see or won't acknowledge his glaring double standard. I am frankly surprised, however, that people seem to be reluctant or refuse to hold him to his own standard which he has set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Freedom of religion is a Canadian value. Pretend it isn't. That doesn't change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Freedom of religion is a Canadian value. Pretend it isn't. That doesn't change it. It isn't. It really isn't. Some freedom is. The phrase "Freedom of Religion" implies that one has the freedom to do whatever one's religion dictates. That's not the case, nor should it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 As long as there's no other laws being broken - yes, it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 (edited) As long as there's no other laws being broken - yes, it is. Well, sure. Don't we all have total freedom, religious or not, as long as there are no laws being broken? Edited September 16, 2016 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderfish Posted September 16, 2016 Report Share Posted September 16, 2016 Does Freedom of Religion trump gender equality? If Trudeau believes it does then he needs to dispense with the"because it's 2015" crap. Seems to be a clear-cut case of tripping over one's ideologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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