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We're all extremists, eventually


dialamah

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Rules are are always subject to interpretation and prioritization. Are you really arguing that the Muslim beheading apostates in Iraq are the same as the Muslims that hold a 9-5 job in Canadian city?

I think she is arguing the latter are not true Muslims.

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So far every Muslim I've spoken with about this has said the same as Altai: terrorists and extremists do not follow the teachings of Islam and thus are not Muslim, regardless of what they call themselves

Actually, she said no such thing. She said the rules are the rules. Either you follow them or you are not a Muslim.

If the rules say women should not socialize with men not in their family then you do not socialize with men who are not family members. Period.

If the rules say apostates and blasphemers should be killed, then blasphemers and apostates should be killed. If you do not believe in the rules then you are not a Muslim.

That, at least, is my interpretation of what she has said. I am willing to be corrected.

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Muslims beheading apostates in Iraq. The Caliphate says the prisoner is an apostate because they are fighting against the Caliphate - that makes them apostates. Yet the unfortunate executed are Muslim and have not renounced their religion. They are apostates because the honcho's in Isis declared them enemies of the Caliphate.

Altai makes a good point, I think.

What about someone who actually does leave Islam? Who actually does renounce Islam and wants to join another? You don't have to talk about ISIS. Saudi Arabia will behead you just as fast.

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The only thing that matters to me is they claim to be Muslim and are acting in the name of Islam. You are likely correct that their interpretation of scripture is nonsensical but they still claim to be Muslim and I am no position to say they are not Muslim nor do I want to get into a detailed analysis of Quaran. The only thing I can do is be careful that I do not make blanket statements that condemn all Muslims for the attitudes of the minority.

Yet you do, all the time, referring to them as barbaric and backward, among other choice terms.

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The only thing that matters to me is they claim to be Muslim and are acting in the name of Islam. You are likely correct that their interpretation of scripture is nonsensical but they still claim to be Muslim and I am no position to say they are not Muslim nor do I want to get into a detailed analysis of Quaran. The only thing I can do is be careful that I do not make blanket statements that condemn all Muslims for the attitudes of the minority.

If you are not interested to get into details you could say that at the beginning and we would not talk this much. You could say "I dont care what is true or logical, I want to believe that these terror groups are Muslims, I dont care the fact."

Edited by Altai
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Altai appears to be arguing that non-Muslims should make decisions on who is a Muslim and who is not a Muslim based on whether they interpret the scripture "correctly". This makes no sense.

I think its more that if you understand how 99.94% interpret the scripture one way, how can you possibly take the .006% who interpret it differently seriously?

If I called myself Conservative because I disagreed with deficit spending, but supported more social safety net spending along with everything else that the Liberal party and progressives did or wanted, would you take my claim of being Conservative seriously?

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If you are not interested to get into details you could say that at the beginning and we would not talk this much. You could say "I dont care what is true or logical, I want to believe that these terror groups are Muslims, I dont care the fact."

You seem to be missing the point. No non-Muslim should be making judgments about who is a Muslim or not. Your expectations are completely unreasonable. There is also a certain amount of arrogance in your assumption that your particular interpretations of scriptures are universally accepted. Why should I assume that your interpretations are the "truth"? What makes your interpretations more "true" that other Muslim who disagree with you? Edited by TimG
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A Muslim is a person who accepts the Shahada upon hearing or reading it.

After that it's all about who isn't

a Muslim...and that's a lot less clear.

C'mon DoP, you have all the scriptural proof about Islam's inherent violence, which you don't hesitate to trot out whenever I suggest your interpretation isn't accurate. What's holding you back from responding to Altai's suggestion?

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C'mon DoP, you have all the scriptural proof about Islam's inherent violence, which you don't hesitate to trot out whenever I suggest your interpretation isn't accurate. What's holding you back from responding to Altai's suggestion?

I just did.

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You seem to be missing the point. No non-Muslim should be making judgments about who is a Muslim or not. Your expectations are completely unreasonable. There is also a certain amount of arrogance in your assumption that your particular interpretations of scriptures are universally accepted. Why should I assume that your interpretations are the "truth"? What makes your interpretations more "true" that other Muslim who disagree with you?

LoL I repeat the same things over and over again. Logic does not vary from person to person, truth does not vary from person to person. Its same for everyone. Just someones gets it and somes does not get it.

This is why I wanted you to quote verses. "kill them wherever you find them" is one of the most famous verses. But everyone reject to read the pre-verses and after-verses. It starts as "fight against them whoever wants to fight against you, kill them wherever you find them and dont forget that Allah does not like the extremists, kick them out of your homes as they kicked you out of your home, tyranny and opression is much worse than killing someone."

So if you read the verses together, you understand that this is a defence, not an attack. But non-muslims in general rejects to use their logic and tweezing the famous verse to distort what actually was meant.

So this is why %0,006 is wrong and %99,99 is right.

Edited by Altai
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I think its more that if you understand how 99.94% interpret the scripture one way, how can you possibly take the .006% who interpret it differently seriously?

ISIL are the worst of the worst. Islamic countries have many obnoxious policies that they claim are based on Islam from various laws designed to subjugate women to widespread persecution of religion minorities. If the problem was really limited to ISIL it would be a different story. It would be nice if all Muslims would adopt an outlook similar to what most Christians in Western societies have adopted. We have a long way to go before that happens.
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LoL I repeat the same things over and over again. Logic does not vary from person to person, truth does not vary from person to person. Its same for everyone.

And as I said: you don't know the "truth". You only know your opinion. The fact that you believe it to be the "truth" is immaterial. It is still just your opinion.
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I just did.

Let me help you, then.

Altai, the other day DoP posted this as proof that Muslims are required to wage war on non-believers. Can you explain how this is wrong?

What Islam says on the subject is very firm, however.

I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.

---Muhammad Sahih Bukhari (8:387)

Edited by dialamah
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And as I said: you don't know the "truth". You only know your opinion. The fact that you believe it to be the "truth" is immaterial. It is still just your opinion.

Then why do you condemn terrorism actions ? Its just the opinion of terrorists. Why its considered as an illegal action ? Its wrong according to your opinion but its right according to the terrorists. How come you decide on their behalf ?

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Then why do you condemn terrorism actions?

Because they hurt innocents. That said, I understand the ephemeral nature of moral codes and recognize that my own opinions on what is moral are just my opinion. I don't try to pretend that my morals are the "truth". That said, not all moral codes are equal and frequently they need to adapt to new sets of facts. For me the question is what will lead to an open society where people can live peacefully and freely and make their own choices about how they want to live. Edited by TimG
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and which is my point that your interpretation is wrong and you are not a "Muslim". If you were true you would not be alone in 16.000 other person, it would be roughly 8000 and 8000. The numbers would be close to each other.

Excuse my ignorant Westerner question but... it seems to me there most certainly are quite different interpretations of Islam. For one, there is the split between Sunni and Shia versions, which differ somewhat in their beliefs. Within each of these, there are further splits, such as the different schools within Sunni Islam such as Shafi, Hanbali, Hanafi, etc. Islam seems just as fractured as Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc). I'm sure that by the time you look at all the smaller variants, you would end up with hundreds if not thousands of different interpretations, all of which consider themselves to be valid.

So how can you say Islam is just one single set of beliefs/interpretations and that everyone that follows a different set is not Muslim? This statement just seems to me like a fairly typical mindset found among the highly religious... their interpretation is right and no one else is a true believer.

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Let me help you, then.

Altai, the other day DoP posted this as proof that Muslims are required to wage war on non-believers. Can you explain how this is wrong?

What Islam says on the subject is very firm, however.

I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.

---Muhammad Sahih Bukhari (8:387)

Oh...is the true Muslim going to tell me I read the Quran/Hadiths incorrectly? Too funny.

Edited by DogOnPorch
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Because they hurt innocents. That said, I understand the ephemeral nature of moral codes and recognize that my own opinions on what is moral are just my opinion. I don't try to pretend that my morals are the "truth". That said, not all moral codes are equal and frequently they need to adapt to new sets of facts. For me the question is what will lead to an open society where people can live peacefully and freely and make their own choices about how they want to live.

So you logically realize it that terrorism actions are wrong. This is why there are criminal laws for these logically recognized bad actions. The same way we logically realize that these verses cannot be interpreted as %0,006 do.

Now I hope you understand.

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.....So how can you say Islam is just one single set of beliefs/interpretations and that everyone that follows a different set is not Muslim? This statement just seems to me like a fairly typical mindset found among the highly religious... their interpretation is right and no one else is a true believer.

Agreed...there is nothing special about Islam or a singular definition of who/what is a Muslim. Just more of the same religious rhetoric found in many nations. Maybe Edie Brickell was right:

I'm not aware of too many things

I know what I know, if you know what I mean

Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box

Religion is the smile on a dog

I'm not aware of too many things

I know what I know, if you know what I mean, d-doo yeah

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Oh...is the true Muslim going to tell me I read the Quran/Hadiths incorrectly? Too funny.

I would be curious to hear the rationalization. When it comes to Christianity, Christians can always argue that in case of contradiction the new testament trumps the old testament. I wonder if something like that exists for Muslims?
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I'm not aware of too many things

I know what I know, if you know what I mean

Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box

Religion is the smile on a dog

I'm not aware of too many things

I know what I know, if you know what I mean, d-doo yeah

Dogs are unclean in Islam. Haram.

Muhammad ordered that all dogs are to be slain. Only upon being reminded that some dogs are used for hunting and herding did he order that those particular dogs be spared. Whew...glad I'm a hunter.

I would be curious to hear the rationalization. When it comes to Christianity, Christians can always argue that in case of contradiction the new testament trumps the old testament. I wonder if something like that exists for Muslims?

Yes indeed. It's called Abrogation.

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Excuse my ignorant Westerner question but... it seems to me there most certainly are quite different interpretations of Islam. For one, there is the split between Sunni and Shia versions, which differ somewhat in their beliefs. Within each of these, there are further splits, such as the different schools within Sunni Islam such as Shafi, Hanbali, Hanafi, etc. Islam seems just as fractured as Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc). I'm sure that by the time you look at all the smaller variants, you would end up with hundreds if not thousands of different interpretations, all of which consider themselves to be valid.

So how can you say Islam is just one single set of beliefs/interpretations and that everyone that follows a different set is not Muslim? This statement just seems to me like a fairly typical mindset found among the highly religious... their interpretation is right and no one else is a true believer.

These differences have nothing with Quran. These are based on stories which is called as hadiths.

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