Canadian Immigration

[CITIZEN_2015]

So, with all of those new immigrants coming with all their trade skills and investments to Canada why then has the unemployment rate virtually not changed at all for decades? Are those new skilled immigrants starting up a new business where they are hiring hundreds or thousands of Canadians or are they just starting up a small business and only hiring people from their own culture and race? Thanks to massive immigration I have to wait to see a doctor or specialist because there are just too many people around for doctors and specialists to see right away. I have to wait in a long line to get a new passport. I went into a T&T Asian grocery store here in Vancouver, and all I see are Asians working there. How is that helping the Canadian unemployment problem? It doesn't. But it does help the new immigrants to find jobs. In my opinion, more immigration creates more problems than does any good for the country and does nothing for the host Canadians who end up footing the bill for most of them for long periods of time, and sometimes forever. No new immigrants should be allowed into Canada unless they have a job or are going to create a job for a Canadian. There are thousands of refugees who are on government(taxpayer)assistance and many have been on the dole for decades. This is theft and a waste of taxpayer's tax dollars.

I am awake alright. Awake to the foolishness that millions of new immigrants and refugees is great for Canada and Canadians. That is a propaganda and bull crap story spread by the politicians,the lame duck media and people who make money from more immigration. that people like you eat up.

It is people like you who spread the hate by their lies and false statistics. I have given you real life figures and statistics and you have rebuffed by saying that the asian grocery you visited had all asian employees so again you generalized that all immigrants only hire immigrants. Well the Lebanese restaurant that I had my Supper last weekend had a Caucasian cook and a Caucasian waitress if that makes you happy so he created at least two jobs, As why unemployment is so high then blame yourself not immigrants. You don't look at the positive sides likely attributed to immigration that Canadians enjoying one of the highest standards of living in the world. Or their is a national health service for everyone unlike some countries where the sick receives no care and many die or have to live in despair. That Canada is a prosperous country. That Canadians are better off than most likely all of the countries in the world. No country in the world has zero employment rate. Not to mention that Canada is one of the few countries which was built on immigration and by immigrants. I guess that along while ago when your grand grand parents immigrated to Canada they too were blamed by people like you for all problems then? The 6.9% unemployment rate is one of the lowest in the world and you pick that up and pick an easy target and blame immigrants for that and all your personal problems too. That is what a loser would do.

Edited August 24, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[cybercoma]

So, with all of those new immigrants coming with all their trade skills and investments to Canada why then has the unemployment rate virtually not changed at all for decades?

This completely undermines your argument about immigrants taking all of "our" jobs, doesn't it? If they were, then unemployment would rise, as "real" Canadians started having a harder time finding jobs that are being taken by immigrants.

[Machjo]

It is not skin color and accent I worry about but rather being swamped by people with certain unacceptable beliefs/cultures which do not stand up to the culture Canada is built upon. That is respect for human and women's rights, believing in equality, tolerance, respect, care, peaceful co-existence. So we must become more selective on who is admitted in. We don't wish to see civil disturbances that we are now witnessing in Europe as a result of them not being selective and their decades long liberal admission policies. I am not encouraging selection based on regions but selection based on personal beliefs.

What? Canadians have the monopoly on all of these beliefs?

[dre]

So, with all of those new immigrants coming with all their trade skills and investments to Canada why then has the unemployment rate virtually not changed at all for decades?

Unchanged? Its been up and down like crazy. And its not possible for it to go much lower than it is now.

Edited August 24, 2016 by dre

[Argus]

So here's what we could do to improve the guest worker program. If a company needs a position filled they should have to post the job in Canada for a month. They can only qualify for a guest worker if they can prove they couldn't find a Canadian. And if they CAN prove that they can bring in a guest worker as long as that guest worker is paid the industry standard for that job. Not less.

Wrong topic.

[dre]

Wrong topic.

Dont care.

[Argus]

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/91-003-x/2007001/figures/4129865-eng.htm

Added for reference.

Not sure what the relevance is. The numbers have already been posted and discussed. We see the sudden upsurge in immigrant in the 1980s after the Tories had a cabinet meeting where their Toronto immigration minister promised them newcomers would vote Tory. But we knew that anyway.

Unless this is to say "Hey, we had way higher immigration back when the country was mostly empty" which is also irrelevant given, uh, the country was mostly empty then. Not to mention there was no need of skills or education or language, and no pogey or pensions or welfare if the newcomers didn't support themselves.

[Argus]

We can learn from the EU model. Free movement of people. Let the market figure it out.

But we're all for free markets until skin colour and accents come into play it seems.

This is not the temporary foreign worker topic. This is the immigration topic.

[Argus]

Dont care.

Will you care if you get suspended for derailing the topic?

[Michael Hardner]

Hi Argus, since the conversation was about numbers I thought I would add a reference point for both sides of the debate.

The country seems mostly empty to me still, but I will add a reference to global population density, again for both sides of the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density

Canada is 230th on the list.

[dre]

Hi Argus, since the conversation was about numbers I thought I would add a reference point for both sides of the debate.

The country seems mostly empty to me still, but I will add a reference to global population density, again for both sides of the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density

Canada is 230th on the list.

Sure but the arctic inflates our numbers. Be curious to know what our density is within 2 hundred miles of the US border, since thats where we all live?

Will you care if you get suspended for derailing the topic?

Dont care.

[Argus]

False info/lies in above post.........

First off you are generalizing all immigrants as those costing Canadians in extra housing, food and clothing or Canada spending your money to keep them alive!!!!!!.

Some immigrants make a lot of money and pay taxes. Some immigrants make very little money and pay no taxes. Some immigrants make no money and cost us in supporting them. The Fraser Institute, calculating the net income vs the cost of the immigration system to Canada has said that the cost outweighs the benefits by some $24 billion per year.

Though small portion may (mainly refugees for the first year or so)

It costs us $50,000 just to process a single refugee. That doesn't count his or her food, clothing and shelter, or language lessons or medical care. If that refugee, who likely has no language or job skills that will make them much money in Canada, does not go on to earn a high salary so that he pays many thousands of dollars in tax per year, he will never earn more than we have spent on him.

What you also ignore is that smart immigration is like an investment in the long term. Immigrants today are consumers and tax payers tomorrow.

Not unless they earn a substantial salary. How much depends on their dependents. A taxi driver with four kids is not going to be paying taxes. One third of Canadians pay no income tax because they don't earn enough. The lower 50% of income earners in Canada contribute only 4% of income taxes.

Based on same calculation if even half of what we are admitting to Canada each year become contributing citizens like myself then each year this amounts to 150 billion dollars of lifelong contributions to Canada and Canadians for EACH year's population admissions.

Pulling numbers out of your ass is an unconvincing argument.

[Argus]

Hi Argus, since the conversation was about numbers I thought I would add a reference point for both sides of the debate.

The country seems mostly empty to me still, but I will add a reference to global population density, again for both sides of the discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density

Canada is 230th on the list.

But our population density is irrelevant since the discussion on immigration hinges on economics as well as cultural factors.

That we have empty tundra doesn't really matter to the argument of what type of immigrant and how many are best for Canada's economy. Likewise it doesn't matter to the argument of whether bringing over immigrants with cultural values which are hostile to our own is a danger to Canada's own value system.

And Canada's population density numbers are extremely deceptive. The huge empty tracts of land in the territories or northern provinces are not where Canadians live, nor where immigrants settle. That's particularly so since most of our immigrants are from warm climates and find even Toronto to be horribly cold.

[Michael Hardner]

But our population density is irrelevant since the discussion on immigration hinges on economics as well as cultural factors.

Most definitely. I'm trying to help out here and there around the points of discussion.

When people were discussing immigration rates, I posted a link to the statscan historical data for reference. When people were discussing how 'full' the country was I posted some quantitative data around that.

Cultural fit is, of course, relevant but since it's a qualitative discussion I can't add any objective data to that discussion. It is a deep and complex topic,as evidenced by the volume of posts on MLW that address it.

Enjoy the discussion.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Pulling numbers out of your ass is an unconvincing argument.

Yes it needs a bit of brain to understand that I didn't pull the number out of anyone's ass. So I would explain in more details for those lacking the former. It was argued that Canada takes in 300,000 per year (by yourself). It was stated that myself as an example have (or will by the time I retire) contributed to the tax/pension system (direct income tax, sales tax, property tax, pension,....) well OVER a MILLION dollars over my 35-40 year working life (less than half remains but already I have paid over $400,000 in direct income tax alone). So I said even if half of immigrants that we are admitting each year (that makes it 150,000 that is 300,000 divided by two) are like myself contributing tax payers (not to mention the other 60% of my income which I don't pay in taxes goes to buy food, clothing, furniture, appliances....etc and sparking consumer spending and growth in economy and hence more jobs in Canada) then 150,000 X 1000,000 = 150,000,000,000 which is 150 billion dollars of contribution by those we are admitting as immigrants EVERY YEAR. Sorry for overestimating your intelligence.

On a separate note I agree with those who say we need to cut back on numbers (I believe in half) so that we can absorb. I am not an extreme on either side (neither support a complete ban nor support an increase). I have also stated many times that we need SMART immigration. We need to admit SELECTIVELY so that the majority if not all becoming the million dollar over lifetime taxpayers and tax/pension contributors. We also have to admit SELECTIVELY based on cultural compatibility with what Canada is built upon and Canadians stand for. That is respect for human and women's rights, respect for equality of gender and respect for diversity and respect for other religions and beliefs, respect for freedom and tolerance and diversity and care which most (but regretfully not all) Canadians believe in.

Edited August 24, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[G Huxley]

We can learn from the EU model. Free movement of people. Let the market figure it out.

But we're all for free markets until skin colour and accents come into play it seems.

The EU model? The EU is falling to pieces as we speak as a result to its narrow sighted policies.

[Argus]

Yes it needs a bit of brain to understand that I didn't pull the number out of anyone's ass. So I would explain in more details for those lacking the former. It was argued that Canada takes in 300,000 per year (by yourself).

Ah, I get it now. Your 'bit of a brain' doesn't allow you to understand the difference between an 'argument' and a statement of fact backed up by official sources.

It was stated that myself as an example have (or will by the time I retire) contributed to the tax/pension system (direct income tax, sales tax, property tax, pension,....) well OVER a MILLION dollars over my 35-40 year working life

So YOU say. But we have no way of validating this. Furthermore, what makes YOU the standard for everyone in Canada, much less for immigrants? What if we instead use Joe Smith or Hussein Muhammad, neither of whom have contributed a single dime in taxes in their entire lives? Using them as our example is just as valid as using you.

Of course, we can't use them any more than you. That would be moronic. You can't estimate from such a small sample size. Instead we use much broader sample sizes like the ones I post, because then the numbers will have some validity.

The numbers you pulled out of your ass have none.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Argus

[CITIZEN_2015]

It was a statement of fact but liars would think everyone is like themselves. What do you expect me to do for so called validation. Attach my tax returns for the past 20 years!!!!!!! Seriously!!!.

Edited August 24, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Argus]

It was a statement of fact but liars would think everyone is like themselves. What do you expect me to do for so called validation. Attach my tax returns for the past 20 years!!!!!!! Seriously!!!.

Seriously. What I pointed out to you is that anyone can say anything on the internet, and that, even if was true about YOU, it is ridiculous to use yourself as the example for the country. Why are you any better an example than someone who has worked off again/on again at Wal-mart as a clerk for the last twenty years, and often been unemployed and contributed nothing in income tax? You cannot take the economic circumstances of one individual and presume that this is the average of the country as a whole.

Clearly you simply do not understand statistics at all.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Argus

[CITIZEN_2015]

Clearly you don't understand the concept of ESTIMATION and averages. That was why I took half of total number of immigrants not all. Also I counted myself as an average. Not a poor clerk or cashier at store but not as rich as those who come with money to invest or land on high paying jobs like doctors (average income being $271,000 per year) or experienced engineers ($150,000 average income).

Edited August 24, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Big Guy]

There is no logical argument relating to economics that is critical of our immigration policy. There are lots of publications proving that point. The only reason for any criticism of our immigration policy is one of human prejudice. Those folks who make decisions based on their personal dislike of other races, do not have the capacity to educate themselves and to see their error.

They are impervious to considering facts and reality. You are wasting your time.

[Argus]

Clearly you don't understand the concept of ESTIMATION and average. That was why I took half of total number of immigrants not all. I think myself as an average. Not a poor clerk or cashier at store but not as rich as those who come with money to invest or land on high paying jobs like doctors (average income being $271,000 per year) or experienced engineers ($150,000 average income).

That's nice, but you are clearly no statistician. Nor do we need you to be one. We already have government agencies which tell us how well immigrants are doing, or not doing. And we have large organizations doing large studies like the Fraser Institute to tell us how much the immigration system costs us. For example, we also have people in the media who will tell us that:

Roughly 40,000 of the newcomers Canada admits each year are the older parents or grandparents of new citizens. Under Kenney, the Immigration department estimated Grandma and Grandpa Immigrant were costing Canadian taxpayers between $1.5 and $2 billion annually. That’s the amount left over after adding up the economic and tax contributions of older family-class immigrants and subtracting the social benefits they received.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/26/justin-trudeau-has-the-wrong-idea-on-immigration

That is also why we know that immigrants from the middle east earn much less, on average, than immigrants from Europe.

http://global-economics.ca/empin_immigrant_region.htm

Edited August 24, 2016 by Argus

[Argus]

There is no logical argument relating to economics that is critical of our immigration policy. There are lots of publications proving that point.

Excellent! Show us!

[CITIZEN_2015]

That is also why we know that immigrants from the middle east earn much less, on average, than immigrants from Europe.

http://global-economics.ca/empin_immigrant_region.htm

You are attaching document that shows recent immigrants from certain regions earn more (or less) than other regions. How is that related to your arguments that immigrants are burden to Canadians or a drag on economy!!!!!!. When I say average income (I meant those in highest income category plus those in lowest income category divided by 2) I was not talking about regional income distribution but average income regardless of where they come from(But I can guess why some tiny minority people are obsessed with regions, color and race!!!! rather than figures).

Even with outdated 2005 statistics, the average income for recent immigrants (that is regions and age included) is about $32500 (that is (15000 + 50000)/2, which about a quarter of $20000 (income after personal exemption) goes to direct income tax. So if you multiply 300.000 (your own figure) by that average direct income tax (300,000 X 5000) = 1.5000,000,000 direct income tax contributions in a SINGLE tax year. Multiply that by 35 year usual working period and it is over 50 billion dollars in Direct Income tax contributions alone for EACH year of admission. And that is for recent immigrants (long time citizens earn a lot more) so the actual figure (adjusted for increasing income over years) would be a lot higher in reality. All these coming out of your own link and figure!!!!!!!!.

Edited August 24, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Big Guy]

Excellent! Show us!

In the past, I have assigned a number of resources for you to read and study before you spout your views. You have always refused to do so. If you spent half the time you spend on this board doing your homework instead of making uneducated comments on any and every topic then some of your arguments might have substance. But that would take up too much of your day and certainly endanger your claims to make enough money to be a millionaire.