Transgender

[Argus]

So you're for discriminating against transgendered people?

What does discriminating mean in this context? Does it involve bathrooms and showers, for example? What about sports teams? If a guy 'self identifies' as a female must he/she be allowed to be on the female sports teams?

Edited May 17, 2016 by Argus

[cybercoma]

Why wouldn't you want to know the numbers that potential policies will affect?

Why does the number of people matter?

Oh and I never said I didn't want to know. You're inferring that.

Edited May 17, 2016 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Depends on your definition of discrimination. What is it that makes them need additional protections that are not already covered by the charter of rights and freedoms, and/or the current criminal code?

Gender identity is not protected under the charter of rights and freedoms.

[cybercoma]

It is most likely just some people or some groups that want to push and make a big deal out of nothing for some unknown reasons.

Just because you refuse to listen and are therefore ignorant to the issues and discrimination faced by transgender people, doesn't mean they're "making a big deal out of nothing for some unknown reasons." The reasons are known and they're making a big deal out of something they're intimately familiar with. If you want to stay closed-minded and ignorant to the issues, that's your prerogative. Fill your boots. However, criticizing people for demanding basic human rights is appalling.

[cybercoma]

I agree fully with this legislation, but I do wonder about what changes and costs it will incur.

You're worried about cost, while transgender people are worried about basic human rights. Think about that for a minute.

[cybercoma]

We have two genders, just like 99.9999% of the other species on this planet. No other animal on this earth is taking it this far, and really they don't care about it, and neither should we.

This is factually incorrect. Genders are social constructs and there's a broad spectrum of gender expressions as well as gender identities.

Maybe you're talking about biological sex? Even then, you're still wrong as there are intersex people for example.

That's not even getting into sexual orientation, which is another topic altogether. People who don't understand these (phrases in italics) scientific concepts often conflate all of these things and have little understanding of the complexity of them.

Edited May 17, 2016 by cybercoma

[Hal 9000]

The issue that I wonder about is this; what exactly is "transgender"? I remember that we used to have transvestites and transexuals and the 2 were not categorized in the same way.

[cybercoma]

What does discriminating mean in this context? Does it involve bathrooms and showers, for example? What about sports teams? If a guy 'self identifies' as a female must he/she be allowed to be on the female sports teams?

Argus has me on ignore, but others have said the same thing.

It's pretty simple what it means in this context. Trudeau was talking about adding it as a protected class under the Canadian Human Rights Act. Want to know what it means in this context? Read the human rights code at the link I just provided. That's what it means.

[The_Squid]

Argus has me on ignore, but others have said the same thing.

It's pretty simple what it means in this context. Trudeau was talking about adding it as a protected class under the Canadian Human Rights Act. Want to know what it means in this context? Read the human rights code at the link I just provided. That's what it means.

Exactly! It's not that hard to grasp what it means...

Our anti-discrimination laws are fairly clear. Why don't social conservatives like to do any reading?

[cybercoma]

The issue that I wonder about is this; what exactly is "transgender"? I remember that we used to have transvestites and transexuals and the 2 were not categorized in the same way.

It would literally take you two seconds of googling to find the answer to that question.

Here is the GLAAD transgender FAQ

Here is the intersex society's definition.

Here is the Wikipedia entry

Here is the WebMD entry

Here is the American Psychological Association article

Read. Learn. Be enlightened.

[The_Squid]

It would literally take you two seconds of googling to find the answer to that question.

Here is the GLAAD transgender FAQ

Here is the intersex society's definition.

Here is the Wikipedia entry

Here is the WebMD entry

Here is the American Psychological Association article

Read. Learn. Be enlightened.

No, no.... screw Google! The Social Conservative Dictionary definition: Perverts stalking bathrooms ready to pounce on children!

[Argus]

Exactly! It's not that hard to grasp what it means...

As usual, you add nothing to a discussion. No one actually knows what it means, what the practical effects will be when you enshrine this into law.

[cybercoma]

Exactly! It's not that hard to grasp what it means...

Our anti-discrimination laws are fairly clear. Why don't social conservatives like to do any reading?

It means such "radical" things like not being turned down from renting an apartment because the landlord thinks you're a "freak." Such "hard to understand" things like businesses not being able to put signs in their windows that say "No Trannies Allowed!" Such "society destroying" protections like not being able to deny a transgender person an education because you think they're "gross."

Earth shattering, I tell you.

[cybercoma]

As usual, you add nothing to a discussion. No one actually knows what it means, what the practical effects will be when you enshrine this into law.

Riiiight.

"Here's the legislation that gender identity will be added to."

"You add nothing to the conversation!"

I'm sorry it's difficult for you to understand legislation (maybe reconsider posting on a forum that discusses legislation extensively?), but I think most people can read and understand what the Canadian Human Rights Act says just fine.

[Hal 9000]

It would literally take you two seconds of googling to find the answer to that question.

Here is the GLAAD transgender FAQ

Here is the intersex society's definition.

Here is the Wikipedia entry

Here is the WebMD entry

Here is the American Psychological Association article

Read. Learn. Be enlightened.

Exactly, it can mean anything or everything...therefore, logic states that it can also mean nothing at all. If it is whatever I decide it is, then everybody and anybody can use any washroom or change room they desire - depending on nothing more than how they feel.

[cybercoma]

Exactly, it can mean anything or everything...

If that's what you got from those articles, then I suggest having someone read them to you and explain the difficult bits.

[Hal 9000]

You don't require meds, hormones, surgery...you don't even have to be gay or dress like the opposite sex. You don't even have to claim to be the opposite sex, you don't need a doctor or psychologist to back up your claims, in fact all you really have to do to be transgender is suggest that you question or haven't defined your gender yet - and maybe not even that.

Is there something nuanced that I'm not getting?

[overthere]

I have a different take on this 'issue'. Transgender folks already have plenty of protection under the law, it is not obvious why it needs to be defined now. This has become 'Mom and Apple Pie' stuff in Canada.

Unless it has nothing to do with transgender rights at all..... I noticed that the Justice Minister today carefully avoided an answer and blithered rubbish when asked if the Liberal vote will be whipped on this bill. Now why would she avoid that, a simple 'yes' would suffice. Party policy and all.......

But what gives me pause, in light of much more important things going on is..... why now? This bill has passed a couple times and has died in the Senate a couple of times. What if... Trudeau needs some ammo, some camouflage to do what he absolutely must do and soon: load the Senate up with not-a-Liberal, but we-will-always-vote Liberal Senators? He needs to do it because he has legislation coming on electoral reform that he needs to punch through before opposition grows and hardens in the sheep. He has no worries in Ottawa, but what if there is a populist insistence on a referendum?

This is backstop legislation. If it gets stuck in the Senate, well then Trudeau just won't have any choice but to overtly and immediately load the Senate with his pals to end this injustice. And what is lost by a Senate delay? Not much. It won't be his fault.

If by some miracle(when the Cons take a look around and think on it a bit) it flies through the Senate, it is back to Plan A on loading the Senate with Liberal pals. Because either way, electoral reform is the #1 priority of this government. And getting the Senate sorted ASAP is really important- and this could well be a vehicle to that.

[Hal 9000]

I might add that it's also allowable to de-transition back to your original gender identity, and because there is no set time limit for this to happen, surely a non-gendered or questioning person who is using the "female" shower could transition back to their original gender shortly after said shower.

Essentially, no one could ever be charged with a crime or asked to vacate a certain bathroom or change room.

So, back my original thought, transgender can mean anything, everything or nothing at all....and no one can legally say otherwise.

[Bryan]

Gender identity is not protected under the charter of rights and freedoms.

What is it that makes them need additional protections that are not already covered by the charter of rights and freedoms, and/or the current criminal code?

[Big Guy]

You're worried about cost, while transgender people are worried about basic human rights. Think about that for a minute.

Thank you for the suggestion. I took your advice and thought about it for a minute and would still like to know how much this is going to cost schools and how they will handle it.

Perhaps for the future: The term I used was "wonder":

Wonder - to think or speculate curiously.

Worry - to torment with cares, anxieties.

There is a big difference between the two.

[Hal 9000]

What is it that makes them need additional protections that are not already covered by the charter of rights and freedoms, and/or the current criminal code?

It doesn't specifically mention people with bad hair, socks and sandals or overweight people wearing spandex either. You just sort of assume that It's already covered in sections 2 and 15.

[The_Squid]

Clearly the social conservatives on this forum won't read legislation or can't understand it... I'm not sure which. socks? Yeah... ok...

[Hal 9000]

If, like cybercoma suggested, transgender people are being denied an education, then of course a law should protect a person (any person) from that type of discrimination. I'm just not so sure that is happening in Canada.

[cybercoma]

You don't require meds, hormones, surgery...you don't even have to be gay or dress like the opposite sex. You don't even have to claim to be the opposite sex, you don't need a doctor or psychologist to back up your claims, in fact all you really have to do to be transgender is suggest that you question or haven't defined your gender yet - and maybe not even that.

Is there something nuanced that I'm not getting?

Yes there is. What makes you think anyone but the person who is transgender is in any position to describe their identity other than themselves? I don't tell you what your identity is. It's like me saying to you that even though you identify as a cisgender male, I'm going to need corroborating information from at least your family doctor, parents, perhaps a psychological evaluation, and whatever else.