Internet Voting in Canadian Federal Elections

[Big Guy]

It appears that within the Liberal government plans for electoral reform is the issue of methods of submitting your choice(s). That is one of the issues to be discussed in the election reform review meetings.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/why-hi-tech-voting-has-low-priority-for-canadian-elections-1.3218476

In our municipality, Internet voting was one option available for casting your ballot. There was an increase in the number of voters but I was unable to find out how many votes were submitted by the different methods.

At this point in time there are four basic ways to vote in federal elections:

Vote on election day
Vote at your advance poll
Vote at your local Elections Canada office
Vote by mail

http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?dir=vote&document=index〈=e&section=vot

I believe that technology has advanced to a point where Internet voting in federal elections could and should become an option. I do have mobility restrictions, usually vote in the advance polls but still have to spend a lot of time getting to the polls and end up in line with a bunch of old folks, many with physical restrictions.

Would Internet voting favor any one party?

The 43rd Canadian federal election is scheduled to take place on or before October 21, 2019. I believe that voting using the Internet from the comfort of your home should be an option and that our government should begin to prepare for that option.

What do you think?

[TimG]

I believe that technology has advanced to a point where Internet voting in federal elections could and should become an option.

An online system is only as secure as the system set up to verify requests for credentials and authenticate those credentials. I do not believe that any secure online voting system will be easier than going to a polling booth or asking for a mail in ballot. Given the risks involved it would be better not setting up such a system at all. People think online voting is attractive only because they compare it to systems that don't have the same security risk profile. Edited May 15, 2016 by TimG

[Big Guy]

An online system is only as secure as the system set up to verify requests for credentials and authenticate those credentials. I do not believe that any secure online voting system will be easier than going to a polling booth or asking for a mail in ballot. Given the risks involved it would be better not setting up such a system at all. People think online voting is attractive only because they compare it to systems that don't have the same security risk profile.

If we currently trust the Internet to complete $billions in financial transactions then why would we question the security system for voting?

What are the risks involved? I think it is attractive because it would make it far easier for a very large number of Canadians to post their ballot, increase the number of Canadians who vote and make the end result of our choices more valid.

Is that not beneficial to our democratic system?

[Bryan]

Billions of dollars in fraud are committed electronically on a routine basis. We allow it because there is insurance to cover the losses.

[TimG]

If we currently trust the Internet to complete $billions in financial transactions then why would we question the security system for voting?

1) With banking each individual has a huge incentive to keep their login secret and up to date since they are personally liable if it is compromised;

2) Banking transactions are logged and can be reversed. An anonymous ballot would not be able to have tracking information and could not be reversed.

Yet even with that banking fraud is widespread.

You have to assume that people would treat their online credentials with the same importance they already place on voting (which implies not very much given the low turnouts).

What are the risks involved?

Hackers creating bots that vote on behalf of a large number of people?

People losing their right to a secret ballot because of intimidation by other household members?

People being denied their right to vote because someone submitted a spurious online registration?

Is that not beneficial to our democratic system?

If people can't get off their butts and go a polling station they should not be voting. Edited May 15, 2016 by TimG

[Argus]

If people can't get off their butts and go a polling station they should not be voting.

This pretty much encapsulates my view towards those who want to make it easier to vote, or even make voting mandatory. I don't want more ignorant people voting. If people are uninterested in politics and don't feel they care who's in charge why in hell would we insist they vote? Is making the electorate even more ignorant going to result in better government? If I had my way I'd make it harder to vote, weed out the ignorant and those who really don't care much.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Argus

[Smallc]

This pretty much encapsulates my view towards those who want to make it easier to vote, or even make voting mandatory. I don't want more ignorant people voting.

We're in agreement.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Smallc

[Big Guy]

It is inevitable that the Internet will eventually be used to cast a vote. The only question is when the technology will be secure enough to satisfy that function. I am no computer expert but those who are, who I know and whose advice I accept tell me that it can be done to-day but we have three more years to work on it.

I would like to see our current government proceed with a Request for Proposals (RFP's), and Invitations to Bid (ITB's) on software to perform this task.

As to possible irregularities that might occur, I believe that are no different than are available now for voting by mail.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Big Guy

[TimG]

I am no computer expert but those who are, who I know and whose advice I accept tell me that it can be done to-day but we have three more years to work on it.

Well, I know a lot more about these issues than you and I can tell you it is NOT a question of technology. We have the technology to make it completely secure. The question is how cumbersome the process for registering and voting will be because every tradeoff made to make the process easier will open loop holes that can be exploited.

If I was forced to design a system for online voting I would do something like this:

1) Each election allow people to log into their CRA account and request an electronic voting form;

2) Elections Canada mails the electronic voting form to the address that CRA has on file;

3) The voter then logs into elections Canada with the code that came in the mail; They are also removed from voting list;

4) They submit their vote which is encrypted with a special key that only and stored until election day;

5) If the voter claims they did not vote electronically the encrypted vote will be marked as disputed and not counted;

6) On election day all encrypted votes are opened by a separate system with no knowledge of the voter who made them;

Personally, I don't this this system will be any easier than a mail in ballot.

Edited May 16, 2016 by TimG

[Argus]

Well, I know a lot more about these issues than you and I can tell you it is NOT a question of technology. We have the technology to make it completely secure. The question is how cumbersome the process for registering and voting will be because every trade made to make the process easier will open loop holes that can be exploited.

If I was forced to design a system for online voting I would do something like this:

1) Each election allow people to log into their CRA account and request an electronic voting form;

Well, you'd fail at the first step. CRA has a very low takeup rate for it's "my account" feature, in large part due to the extreme security measures, far more severe than you'll see with banks.

You have to log on to create your account, with personal information, including what was in your last t1, then wait while they snail-mail you a security code, then use that to complete your account setup. If you forget your user Id, then you have to create a new one and wait for them to snail-mail you a new security code.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Argus

[TimG]

Well, you'd fail at the first step. CRA has a very low takeup rate for it's "my account" feature, in large part due to the extreme security measures, far more severe than you'll see with banks.

You have to log on to create your account, with personal information, including what was in your last t1, then wait while they snail-mail you a security code, then use that to complete your account setup. If you forget your user Id, then you have to create a new one and wait for them to snail-mail you a new security code.

You seem to have missed my point: the process for authenticating users has to be onerous because that is how they prevent fraud. The CRA came up with the process they did because they wanted to minimize the possibility of abuse and I don't see why an electronic voting system should be any less secure.

Bottom line: voting electronically should be much more difficult than going to a polling booth. If it is easier then the people who designed the system have messed up.

Edited May 16, 2016 by TimG

[Big Guy]

Well, I know a lot more about these issues than you and I can tell you it is NOT a question of technology....

Thank you for sharing your knowledge of the process. While I find it informative I find it difficult to believe that it is not inevitable that we will be using the Internet to vote. I hope you are mistaken because I believe that the ease of access and convenience to polling as it stands to-day is restricted by ones physical ability. Our demography (and I am one) projects a continuing aging population and I believe Internet voting would be beneficial to that demographic. I was hoping it would be up and functioning by 2019 election.

I was able to vote on line in our last municipal election and look forward to doing the same in future provincial and federal elections.

I just completed my census on line. Why can the same process not be used for voting?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Big Guy

[Big Guy]

..

Bottom line: voting electronically should be much more difficult than going to a polling booth. If it is easier then the people who designed the system have messed up.

Please expand that view. I am not sure I understand your position.

[TimG]

I just completed my census on line. Why can the same process not be used for voting?

Because they don't really care if a census is filled out by someone who was not supposed to fill it out.

Also there is no incentive for people to enter 'fraudulent' census responses.

Have you signed up for a CRA online account?

That security process is the minimum required for online voting.

Why do you think it should be any less?

Edited May 16, 2016 by TimG

[Moonlight Graham]

An online system is only as secure as the system set up to verify requests for credentials and authenticate those credentials. I do not believe that any secure online voting system will be easier than going to a polling booth or asking for a mail in ballot. Given the risks involved it would be better not setting up such a system at all. People think online voting is attractive only because they compare it to systems that don't have the same security risk profile.

I agree. The cost-savings to the public may also not be much benefit either if the security apparatus needed for that online security needs to immense, and perfect.

I prefer that paper copies of ballots exist for people to see and count (and recount), not just 1 and 0's in a database, which can be manipulated by a well-hidden algorithm in a software program obviously hidden from public eyes for, ironically, security reasons.

[eyeball]

You seem to have missed my point: the process for authenticating users has to be onerous because that is how they prevent fraud. The CRA came up with the process they did because they wanted to minimize the possibility of abuse and I don't see why an electronic voting system should be any less secure.

Bottom line: voting electronically should be much more difficult than going to a polling booth. If it is easier then the people who designed the system have messed up.

With more qualified voters at hand what would you say to putting more things to referenda? I'm thinking we could probably get rid of the Senate and let voters vett the legislation their representatives produce.

[segnosaur]

As to possible irregularities that might occur, I believe that are no different than are available now for voting by mail.

The difference is that fraud by mail is relatively time consuming on a per-vote basis, as someone has to manually fill out a ballot and submit it.

On the other hand, there are a variety of tools that can be used to compromise security on electronic systems. Many of these tools are automated (i.e. are 'bots'), so one person does not have to manually be involved in attacking a system... just start up a program and wait for it to find a vulnerability.

[segnosaur]

Anyone considering the use of electronic voting should consider the experiences of the U.S.

The U.S. does not have voting via internet. But, they do use electronic voting machines. And there have been a lot of complaints about them... some problems may be due to faulty programming or hardware, other problems are due to actual attempts at corruption and fraud.

Electronic voting machines 'lost' roughly 18000 ballots during a recent congressional election.

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2006-07/electronic-voting/index_files/page0004.html

Devices can be hacked by outsiders:

http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2012-11/how-i-hacked-electronic-voting-machine

[Topaz]

IF Elections Canada could use the same software that the Banks use, then I be for it but right now, computer voting can be hacked. Telephone voting maybe secure and the old fashion pencil would also be secure. I've watched on TV, how easy it was for someone to playing around with the voting computer software so changes could take place when someone voted a certain way and I believe its been done in the US many times in the past elections.

[Argus]

You seem to have missed my point: the process for authenticating users has to be onerous because that is how they prevent fraud. The CRA came up with the process they did because they wanted to minimize the possibility of abuse and I don't see why an electronic voting system should be any less secure.

But the whole point of going electronic is to make it easier and increase the number of voters. This will do neither.

[Scott Mayers]

It appears that within the Liberal government plans for electoral reform is the issue of methods of submitting your choice(s). That is one of the issues to be discussed in the election reform review meetings.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/why-hi-tech-voting-has-low-priority-for-canadian-elections-1.3218476

In our municipality, Internet voting was one option available for casting your ballot. There was an increase in the number of voters but I was unable to find out how many votes were submitted by the different methods.

At this point in time there are four basic ways to vote in federal elections:

Vote on election day

Vote at your advance poll

Vote at your local Elections Canada office

Vote by mail

http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?dir=vote&document=index〈=e&section=vot

I believe that technology has advanced to a point where Internet voting in federal elections could and should become an option. I do have mobility restrictions, usually vote in the advance polls but still have to spend a lot of time getting to the polls and end up in line with a bunch of old folks, many with physical restrictions.

Would Internet voting favor any one party?

The 43rd Canadian federal election is scheduled to take place on or before October 21, 2019. I believe that voting using the Internet from the comfort of your home should be an option and that our government should begin to prepare for that option.

What do you think?

Unless our Canadian government sites are owned outright by us, the people, this process may be too risky to trust. At present, the sites, while 'trusted' by private owners, grants the owners proprietary privilege to censure (like the CBC) AND with protected secrecy. As such, it would be highly unwise to place faith in an online voting system for such serious concerns.

[Big Guy]

There are stories of successful application of this process:

Arizona made transitional moves towards online voting. Each registered Democrat received a personal identification number in the mail. These citizens had the option to either cast ballots at a designated location or over the internet from the comfort of their own home. Voters voting over the internet were required to insert their PIN and answer two personal questions. Once all the information is verified, they have the voting options. Estonia has made notable advances in Internet Voting technology. In Estonia, each voter has a national ID card that they use to identify each citizen (like our SIN). The ID card is the security Estonia put in to ensure reliability in votes. Security officials said that they have not detected any unusual activity or tampering of the votes.

[segnosaur]

There are stories of successful application of this process:

Keep in mind that just because a system has been used successfully does not mean that there are not significant flaws. Its possible that, in the examples you quoted, there was not enough of an incentive for hackers to interfere.

Arizona made transitional moves towards online voting. Each registered Democrat received a personal identification number in the mail. These citizens had the option to either cast ballots at a designated location or over the internet from the comfort of their own home.

Arizona's experiences have been far from perfect. While they have had an increase in the number of voters, in the past they have also had to deal with:

- Server crashes (making it unavailable for about an hour)

- Some users were unable to vote with their computers/browsers (for example, a large number of Mac users.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/21/technology/21vote.html

Estonia has made notable advances in Internet Voting technology.

From: http://www.engin.umich.edu/college/about/news/stories/2014/may/security-risks-found-in-estonia-online-voting-system

...the nation's Internet voting system cannot guarantee fair elections because of fundamental security weaknesses and poor operational procedures, security and Internet voting researchers have found...The analysis performed by the team members revealed that sophisticated attackers could easily compromise the integrity of the country's Internet voting system and influence an election's outcome, quite possibly without a trace. The researchers recommend that the system should immediately be discontinued.

...

In one attack, malware on the voter's computer silently steals votes, despite the systems' use of secure national ID cards and smartphone verification. A second kind of attack smuggles vote-stealing software into the tabulation server that produces the final official count.

[Big Guy]

But even with some of these potential problems the system must still be as safe (or unsafe) as the current one.

"Brad Butt, the MP for the riding of Mississauga-Streetsville, said on two occasions, while speaking in support of his government’s proposed “Fair Elections Act”, that he had personally witnessed people collecting discarded voter ID cards with the aim of using them to vote illegally." So our current system is full of holes?

Edited May 16, 2016 by Big Guy

[segnosaur]

But even with some of these potential problems the system must still be as safe (or unsafe) as the current one.

"Brad Butt, the MP for the riding of Mississauga-Streetsville, said on two occasions, while speaking in support of his government’s proposed “Fair Elections Act”, that he had personally witnessed people collecting discarded voter ID cards with the aim of using them to vote illegally." So our current system is full of holes?

As I have explained before:

In theory it is possible to commit fraud in Canadian elections. (e.g. voter fraud by email, voting as "someone else" at a polling station.) However, such types of fraud are fairly time consuming (especially on a per-vote bases). If you wanted to steal people's voter cards and vote as them, you'd have to do that hundreds/thousands of times, and that's within one riding. And, there will be a paper trail, as well as ways to mitigate the problems. (e.g. the person who's identity has been stolen can still vote with proper ID, and officials may notice if there is a large number of people attempting to vote twice. So yes, you can have fraud but its unlikely to affect the course of an election.

On the other hand, electronic voting allows a large number of votes to either be lost or gained, by a single person, almost instantaneously. And such fraud would likely be more difficult to detect, as electronic systems don't leave the same type of artifacts.

Then there are the other problems that I pointed out: Servers crashing (imagine thousands of people not able to vote for hours because a server died), software glitches failing to register votes (as I pointed out has happened with American electronic voting machines.) At least with paper ballots, those running elections can go and count physical ballots. If your server (due to a software glitch) fails to register half the votes, who will ever notice?