Selective Abortions: They're Happening in Canada

kimmy · April 13, 2016

What kind of people use concern for females as a precursor to hand the rights of women to make reproductive decisions over to government womb-police?

I am basically with this. Establish this precedent, and you're opening up a can of worms.

This is an interesting idea...

The only way I see it stopping is to not tell parents the sex of the fetus until after say, 5 months.

...although I suspect that the result would be a cottage industry of med-school drop-outs bumping around in vans with ultrasound machines, offering their services to backwater types willing to pay for it.

I think the real answer is to attack the culture itself. Make sure that attitudes that place so little value on women die out with the first generation.

-k

April 13, 2016

Aborting a wanted, healthy fetus based on its gender changes the dynamics of the relationship between mother/fetus within the discussion of abortion because typically, we are accustomed to using health/desire as the primary justification for terminating.

What about aborting a healthy fetus based on genetic disposition to a certain disease, or because it has Down Syndrome, or because the Father was caught with your sister last week, or because you didn't want to get pregnant in the first place, or whatever? You do see the problem of insisting a woman tells you why she wants the abortion, and then making her decision for her?

Wilber · April 13, 2016

What about aborting a healthy fetus based on genetic disposition to a certain disease, or because it has Down Syndrome, or because the Father was caught with your sister last week, or because you didn't want to get pregnant in the first place, or whatever? You do see the problem of insisting a woman tells you why she wants the abortion, and then making her decision for her?

You don't see a problem with terminating a life solely because a person is female?

Wilber · April 13, 2016

I think the real answer is to attack the culture itself. Make sure that attitudes that place so little value on women die out with the first generation.

-k

Ultimately it is the only answer but that doesn't mean it has to be accommodated in the mean time.

waldo · April 13, 2016

sex selection in reproductive technology (embryonic procedures) is prohibited, subject to an exception relating to disorders and disease; per the Assisted Human Reproduction Act:

Prohibited procedures

5(1) No person shall knowingly

(e) for the purpose of creating a human being, perform any procedure or provide, prescribe or administer any thing that would ensure or increase the probability that an embryo will be of a particular sex, or that would identify the sex of an in vitro embryo, except to prevent, diagnose or treat a sex-linked disorder or disease;

.

Big Guy · April 13, 2016

It comes down to a simple question: Does the right of a woman to chose to abort a pregnancy supersede any reason for her to be forced to keep it to term?

I think yes.

You can tap dance around that question as to when is it a person, number of months, cause of pregnancy etc. yet the question remains the same.

As to cost or payment, we deal with the result, not the cause, of a lifestyle. We still cover the cost of lung surgery and therapy for heavy smokers, or a drunken driver running into a tree etc.

Wilber · April 13, 2016

Because a person has a right to do something doesn't obligate the state to pay for it.

cybercoma · April 13, 2016

If the only reason is she doesn't want a female child, damn right. That's no more necessary than cosmetic surgery.

I'm with BC Chick on this one.

And it goes back to how do you police their reasons. They will either lie about them or find another way to get the abortion. The only good idea in this and it pains me to say it, has come from scribblet. Her suggestion is the only one that I see which respects people's rights yet protects against sex selective abortions. However, it's not without its own problems, as I already mentioned. Now you're looking at women potentially killing themselves trying to terminate their pregnancies in the last trimester without a doctor.

cybercoma · April 13, 2016

Then why not abandon all ethical standards and allow things like suttee and female circumcision?

We have a military that kills people. Why not abandon all ethics and allow serial killers too! :rolleyes:

cybercoma · April 13, 2016

Because a person has a right to do something doesn't obligate the state to pay for it.

If someone doesn't want to be pregnant, the state should not force them to be. Full stop. No exceptions. Since you like slippery slope logic and false dilemmas, consider this broken argument.... Why not pass a law insisting that anyone who hasn't had a child yet can't take birth control! It's their patriotic duty to populate the nation. Everyone should have at least two children, so we don't have to rely as much on immigration.

BC_chick · April 13, 2016

For the record, to the people who misinterpreted my posts, I am not against sex-selective abortions in the sense that they should be banned. I am still pro choice and I would rather see early abortions than infanticide of baby girls as is the case in India where limits are placed on sex-selective abortions.

As I said in my first post on the thread, on logical level it's true that the reason for abortion should not make a difference in the same way as if someone is pro life there should not be a difference whether the fetus was conceived of rape or incest. However, on a purely emotional level, that is not the case and it goes for many in both sides of the argument.

Being pro life except for incest and rape only goes to show that woman's right does play an important role and likewise, the fact that many pro choicers are uncomfortable with sex-select abortion just goes to show that the fetus is also considered a life to many even if the life of the mother ultimately trumps than of the fetus.

IOW, it's wide spectrum where only the two ends of the spectrum are fully committed to their conviction, but for many of us, the issue is various shades of grey.

cybercoma · April 13, 2016

Of course there's a spectrum of opinions, but creating a financial barrier is still a barrier.

Wilber · April 13, 2016

If someone doesn't want to be pregnant, the state should not force them to be. Full stop. No exceptions. Since you like slippery slope logic and false dilemmas, consider this broken argument.... Why not pass a law insisting that anyone who hasn't had a child yet can't take birth control! It's their patriotic duty to populate the nation. Everyone should have at least two children, so we don't have to rely as much on immigration.

No one is forcing them to be pregnant. No one forced them to get pregnant. I'm not advocating taking away their right to an abortion, I just don't think the state should be obligated to pay for their abortions until they get the a male child.

BC_chick · April 13, 2016

Of course there's a spectrum of opinions, but creating a financial barrier is still a barrier.

I never agreed with that either, as I said to Wilber, who picks up the tab for the abortion isn't the issue as far as I'm concerned. It would be tough to establish and to enforce what is and what isn't sex-selective. Also, forcing women to carry unwanted baby girls also leads to more abuse of them when they're born.

No, to me, the whole thing comes down to valuing female lives and my disgust with such practices (similar to niqab), but I know that on a logical level, there is not much we can do about it.

Edited April 13, 2016 by BC_chick

Wilber · April 13, 2016

Of course there's a spectrum of opinions, but creating a financial barrier is still a barrier.

There are financial barriers to most choices we make.

Wilber · April 13, 2016

Canada is one of the few countries in the world that has no laws restricting abortion at all. All we have is ethics. If some of you think it is ethical to abort a fetus simply because it is female, so be it. I categorically do not and I don't think the state should sanction it by paying the bill.

GostHacked · April 13, 2016

Canada is one of the few countries in the world that has no laws restricting abortion at all. All we have is ethics. If some of you think it is ethical to abort a fetus simply because it is female, so be it. I categorically do not and I don't think the state should sanction it by paying the bill.

Canada sure does have abortion restrictions.

Wilber · April 13, 2016

Canada sure does have abortion restrictions.

Determined by medical ethics, not law. The Supremes threw out our abortion laws.

April 13, 2016

You don't see a problem with terminating a life solely because a person is female?

I see a problem with terminating a life. But I'm pro choice. It's the same with assisted suicide. I'm not pro abortion, or pro suicide. I'm pro choice. The reasons for a person's choice are their own. I just support their right to make them.

Edited April 13, 2016 by bcsapper

Wilber · April 13, 2016

I see a problem with terminating a life. But I'm pro choice. It's the same with assissted suicide. I'm not pro abortion, or pro suicide. I'm pro choice. The reasons for a person's choice are their own. I just support their right to make them.

I feel the same way but what I don't support is the state's obligation to pay for every choice they make whatever the reason.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Wilber

The_Squid · April 13, 2016

Banning sex determining ultrasounds won't work.

80% of the population lives within 100km of the border. Those with means who want an ultrasound to determine the sex of the baby will drive south and pay for it.

The_Squid · April 13, 2016

Canada is one of the few countries in the world that has no laws restricting abortion at all. All we have is ethics. If some of you think it is ethical to abort a fetus simply because it is female, so be it. I categorically do not and I don't think the state should sanction it by paying the bill.

How do you determine the reason for the abortion and how do you enforce this ban?

Wilber · April 13, 2016

How do you determine the reason for the abortion and how do you enforce this ban?

I haven't said anything about banning anything.

The_Squid · April 13, 2016

I haven't said anything about banning anything.

How do we determine the reason for an abortion so that we can put special restrictions on those particular abortions?

Boges · April 13, 2016

How do we determine the reason for an abortion so that we can put special restrictions on those particular abortions?

Well for one, if someone is purposely getting pregnant getting an abortion and getting pregnant again, that's something that can easily be identified and dealt with a fine for wasting government resources.