SpankyMcFarland Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) My knowledge of this is next to zero - I am reading it on the CBC site so I have no idea how many younger CRA tax people are being recruited by the firms which is alarming in its own way. However, for ordinary Canadians like me, the little I know already looks deeply wrong. Wealthy people are clearly getting special treatment. And we haven't touched the legislative angle yet. Laws are made for these people like bespoke suits. The basic Canadian 'strength of ties' model for determining tax residency is a good one - you reside where you really live, unlike the UK and Ireland where you can make it all up. However, public trust has taken a big dent over the KPMG revelations. We need to know the laws aren't being bent into pretzels by the mega-rich and their minions. BTW one interesting side effect of medical tourism is the importation of highly resistant bacteria from foreign hospitals. Edited April 21, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 My knowledge of this is next to zero - I am reading it on the CBC site so I have no idea how many younger CRA tax people are being recruited by the firms which is alarming in its own way. However, for ordinary Canadians like me, the little I know already looks deeply wrong. Wealthy people are clearly getting special treatment. And we haven't touched the legislative angle yet. Laws are made for these people like bespoke suits. I think its fair to say CRA is as crooked as any gang of Wall Street banksters. I feel like wrecking something, I want revenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Healthcare that is better than Canada's is more often than not much more expensive than in Canada. Yes, certain dental procedures can be had for cheap in Mexico and Thailand but of course they can: dental is a private health system in Canada so it is expensive. No, excellent medical care is cheaper in Mexico and India than in Canada, for certain. A non resident(all expats, for example) would pay around $1500 per day in Canada for a hospital stay alone, exclusive of actual medical bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Everybody has the right to give up residency in Canada, pay all outstanding taxes, remove their money from Canada, pay for their own taxes and services elsewhere, stop using Canadian healthcare and other government services here, or pay cash. What they don't have a right to do is to remove their money from Canada to avoid paying taxes, but continue to use health care and other government services here for free. . Why not? Is it illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 My knowledge of this is next to zero - I am reading it on the CBC site so I have no idea how many younger CRA tax people are being recruited by the firms which is alarming in its own way. However, for ordinary Canadians like me, the little I know already looks deeply wrong. Wealthy people are clearly getting special treatment. And we haven't touched the legislative angle yet. Laws are made for these people like bespoke suits. The basic Canadian 'strength of ties' model for determining tax residency is a good one - you reside where you really live, unlike the UK and Ireland where you can make it all up. However, public trust has taken a big dent over the KPMG revelations. We need to know the laws aren't being bent into pretzels by the mega-rich and their minions. BTW one interesting side effect of medical tourism is the importation of highly resistant bacteria from foreign hospitals. Why is it alarming? Would you restrict the ability of any person to obtain employment in Canada? Persons in Canada are free to accept and free to leave an employer for an opportunity of their choosing. Accounting (and legal) firms don't hire govt staff to subvert justice, the do it because they sometimes encounter talent and are willing to pay what it takes to hire that talent. The govt can of course choose to pay their talent at higher rates than their humdrum drone staff, but those good 'ol collective agreements don't permit that slice of sanity to exist. The only way to stop a CRA employee for pursuing a better life would be to oblige all staff to sign employment contracts that limit working for 'competitors'. Of course, that will never happen since all these CRA folk are already in collective bargaining units, and there is zero chance the union management would like the gravy train that supports their jobs being compromised with any other contract but the collective agreement that keeps the dues rolling in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Why not? Is it illegal? Yes it is. You can move your money offshore and remain a resident of Canada, entitled to benefits and services as long as you declare all of your income and pay all of your taxes. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 What they don't have a right to do is to remove their money from Canada to avoid paying taxes, but continue to use health care and other government services here for free. . Healthcare and government services are a right that is totally free whether you ever pay any taxes or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Yes it is. You can move your money offshore and remain a resident of Canada, entitled to benefits and services as long as you declare all of your income and pay all of your taxes. . No it is not illegal to do exactly what you stated which is What they don't have a right to do is to remove their money from Canada to avoid paying taxes, but continue to use health care and other government services here for free. It is entirely legal to avoid taxes, every person here does just that. If you are a legal resident of Canada, you are not just allowed but entitled to enjoy the services provided, which are almost all done via provincial schemes. Of course, your term 'free' is just silly. Nothing is free. It is illegal to evade taxes, but not at all illegal or even unethical to avoid paying more than what your governmment requires. You don't. I don't. So stop saying what is patently false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Healthcare and government services are a right that is totally free whether you ever pay any taxes or not. Correct, they are a benefit of residency. Being a citizen gets you zip in the way of services, other than the right to pay extra for a passport outside Canada, and the right to be repatriated to a place where you don't live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) Why is it alarming? Would you restrict the ability of any person to obtain employment in Canada? Persons in Canada are free to accept and free to leave an employer for an opportunity of their choosing. Accounting (and legal) firms don't hire govt staff to subvert justice, the do it because they sometimes encounter talent and are willing to pay what it takes to hire that talent. The govt can of course choose to pay their talent at higher rates than their humdrum drone staff, but those good 'ol collective agreements don't permit that slice of sanity to exist. Yes, I would restrict that ability. There is an appearance of preferential treatment here. If collective agreements or whatever have to be changed, so be it. We can't let this cosy arrangement discredit the taxation system.Take the specific example I quoted. You see absolutely no reason to be concerned about that? Edited April 21, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) Why not? Is it illegal? It is often legal - completely, utterly or entirely legal as its cheerleaders are inclined to say - because the people doing it are intimately familiar with the rules and may have had a hand in drafting them. Edited April 21, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 Healthcare and government services are a right that is totally free whether you ever pay any taxes or not. We were talking about how to avoid Canadian taxes legally. The answer to that is ... give up your Canadian residency, and benefits. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 21, 2016 Report Share Posted April 21, 2016 We were talking about how to avoid Canadian taxes legally. The answer to that is ... give up your Canadian residency, and benefits. . Or, structure the things you own so that they legally don't qualify as income for tax purposes. Financial Post runs articles on how to do those kinds of things fairly regularly. Also, giving up residency does not always automatically mean giving up your healthcare. There are always exceptions that the blurbs on the websites don't cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Or, structure the things you own so that they legally don't qualify as income for tax purposes. Financial Post runs articles on how to do those kinds of things fairly regularly. Oh just stop with this BS. We are not talking about using TFSA's to shelter income from taxes. Or the use of corporate class shares to defer taxation (although that loophole will be closing soon enough). People put assets in offshore companies to avoid paying tax on income that they should be reporting and paying tax on. Yes, it really is that easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 People put assets in offshore companies to avoid paying tax on income that they should be reporting and paying tax on. They also do so to reduce the amount of taxes they are required to pay whether they reported it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 They also do so to reduce the amount of taxes they are required to pay whether they reported it or not. Well of course they reduce their taxes which is why they use anonymous offshore companies: since the government does not know they have assets which earn income in these companies the government does not know they are evading taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Well of course they reduce their taxes which is why they use anonymous offshore companies: since the government does not know they have assets which earn income in these companies the government does not know they are evading taxes. They also do so to reduce the amount of taxes they are required to pay whether they reported it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 I know you're a tax accountant and all, MSJ...but maybe you should pay attention to the underlined parts. Bryan, you kill me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 I know you're a tax accountant and all, MSJ...but maybe you should pay attention to the underlined parts. Bryan, you kill me. Yes it's funny that he can choose his words so generally but is unable to come up with a specific example to support his claim wrt offshore investments owned by Canadian resident taxpayers (whether individuals, partnerships, corporate, or trusts). I'll throw out an easy example: I own several foreign investments in my RRSP account. This is perfectly legal and thanks to tax treaties with the US and the U.K. etc is why I prefer to hold these investments in my RRSP rather than my TFSA. Also, I am not required to fill out a T1135 since these investments are held in a RRSP account. But these are not the type of things we are talking about wrt offshore investments. We are talking about a CDN resident incorporating a company in a foreign country and then putting assets into that corporation. Since the corporation is anonymously owned it is therefore easy to evade taxes as income is earned on those assets. Especially if that Canadian works overseas and can move income into the corporation without Fintrac getting in the way. Etc etc I repeat what has already been stated earlier in this thread.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) Yes it's funny that he can choose his words so generally but is unable to come up with a specific example to support his claim wrt offshore investments owned by Canadian resident taxpayers (whether individuals, partnerships, corporate, or trusts). I'll throw out an easy example: I own several foreign investments in my RRSP account. This is perfectly legal and thanks to tax treaties with the US and the U.K. etc is why I prefer to hold these investments in my RRSP rather than my TFSA. Perfectly legal - I should have included that one as well. The problem with many issues in law and accountancy is that the lads in the know mostly line up for one team, so one does not often encounter a dialogue between experts evenly divided on, say, tax issues. Edited April 22, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 The problem here, however, is that we have a bunch of journalists who don't have a clue what they are talking about (for example, mixing up non-resident corporations with offshore investments) with regular folks who read this stuff and then go onto forums spouting general information that is misinformed. Experts rarely want to talk about this because they are interested in the money rather than the principle. On anonymous forums, however, some of us are willing to stick up for principles although I do not knowingly deal with tax evaders (and have fired clients as I have discovered they are/have cheated). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 On anonymous forums, however, some of us are willing to stick up for principles although I do not knowingly deal with tax evaders (and have fired clients as I have discovered they are/have cheated). Don't you turn them in or would that violate some accountant/client privilege principle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msj Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Don't you turn them in or would that violate some accountant/client privilege principle? I have been tempted to phone the anonymous tip line but I have not reported anyone. Accountants do not have client privilege so what we are told can be repeated to the CRA if they request it (subpoena). But privacy is a concern so we keep these matters private until a request is made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 But privacy is a concern so we keep these matters private until a request is made. It's a pity the chances of that are so slim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Hong Kong journalists have warned of a serious threat to press freedom in the city state after the abrupt dismissal of a senior newspaper editor who ran a powerful front-page story based on revelations from the Panama Papers. Ming Pao, one of the city’s most prestigious papers, dismissed chief editor Keung Kwok-yuen on Wednesday, the same day the journalist filled the front page with revelations about Hong Kong celebrities, officials and businessmen. Story Not that the media here in the west has gone out of its way to delve very deeply into this story but lots and lots of rich stinking people here must surely admire the ability of China's state to cover for their ilk. The Panama Papers revelations come at a time when Xi Jinping is facing growing resistance to his rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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