Our military, and how it has been treated by governments past and pres

[Wilber]

Who puts what on the line? Being a soldier in Canada is safer than just being in the general population. They risk LESS than most other workers. Being a US soldier deployed in Iraq during the most dangerous year (2007) was safer than attending high-school in east LA.

Not true in actual combat. We had 159 killed in Afghanistan but total casualties were closer to 2000.

"Eyeball is a fisherman... Its the second most dangerous job on the planet with fatality rates upwards of 100 per 100k."

No one tells Eyeball when and where he has to fish and under what conditions. The fish aren't trying to kill Eyeball. The Canadian army has only about 22,000 regulars and 13000 reserves. Significantly fewer would be actual combat troops.

[Wilber]

Not if they were conscripted.

I don't give a crap because neither of these two give me the time of day when it comes to questioning the reasons for being involved in this stupid war to start with. Then I'm cast as being with the enemy. That's supposed to be conducive to my support, how?

This country has always been able to meet it's military requirement with volunteers. Even during the world wars, conscripts played a negligible role. It seems you consider that to be a bad thing.

[dre]

Not true in actual combat. We had 159 killed in Afghanistan but total casualties were closer to 2000.

"Eyeball is a fisherman... Its the second most dangerous job on the planet with fatality rates upwards of 100 per 100k."

No one tells Eyeball when and where he has to fish and under what conditions. The fish aren't trying to kill Eyeball. The Canadian army has only about 22,000 regulars and 13000 reserves. Significantly fewer would be actual combat troops.

The fact remains being a soldier in Canada is safer than not being one.

And nobody forces anyone to become a soldier OR a fisherman. People who sign up for either know what they are getting into.

The fish aren't trying to kill Eyeball.

That's irrelevant. The fatality rate is still higher.

[Army Guy]

I think its on par. Civilian leaders generally abuse the armed forced in most countries. Like I said the biggest slap in the face is making them die in poorly thought out elective wars, and then of course they add insult to injury by sending them on these fools errands without proper equipment. Then to top it all off, the ones that survive don't get proper support once they get home.

If we hadn't wasted a decade in Afghanistan with very little to show for it there wouldn't be ANY dead or maimed soldiers, or soldiers with PTSD, and there wouldn't BE any Afghanistan vets.

Well that would depend on what you call on par, Canadian soldiers are in the top 5 globally for pay rates, but to get to that point most of the benefits we had once enjoyed where clawed back or dispensed with altogether. Remember it was not all that long ago the media was reporting about soldiers going to food banks, applying for welfare assistance and lower income housing....It was not until the federal government decided to give us the same wages as the public service workers that worked for DND, that is right there was a time when a soldier made considerable less than a civilian working for the same dept....today when the federal public services gets a raise so does the military....today the average soldier is paid a little better than the federal worker....but the jobs are not comparable....

There are plenty of western armies that are paid less than our nations soldiers, but they also receive more benefits, such as housing assistance , or if they live on bases in military PMQ's the rents are lowered, In DND rents are bases or the average rent in that district....if you live in a big city you pay big city rent, That benefit was taken away because civilians were complaining about the different rents....remember these homes where built in the late 50 's, today in 2016 there has been a hand full of new build PMQ's across the country, the rest are under going major updates, but there are a lot still over 40 years old that have received little to no updates.....DND does not own these homes, they were taken over by another Federal government dept, who claims all rent collected is going back into these homes.....If you seen they condition of them you would ask where all these rent money is going.....There are to many lost benefits to mention here but you get the point.....

Canadian military overall treatment of it's military members rates in the lower portion of middle of the pile. for a nation with maybe 65,000 troops that is bad....But this is not news the media covers this stuff all the time, but nobody listens.....well unless it is negative news such as sucide rates, sexual harassment rates....then everyone has an opinion.....

[eyeball]

This country has always been able to meet it's military requirement with volunteers. Even during the world wars, conscripts played a negligible role. It seems you consider that to be a bad thing.

I do actually, especially when it comes to invasive wars. If Canada had to rely on conscripts I bet it would be far more difficult to get most Canadians to support invasions. Maybe I'm just wrong about Canadians

Treating volunteers shabbily by the politicians seems to go with the territory. If they were conscripts they'd have something more tangible to complain about. I have a friend who ferry's volunteer army rangers up and down the coast with his old wooden boat. It's interesting to note his boat doesn't have to pass any of the steamship inspections or apply the sorts of safety rules that civilians do. Life seems cheaper when you're in the army. I guess that shouldn't be surprising in an institution whose purpose is to kill human beings.

[Wilber]

I do actually, especially when it comes to invasive wars. If Canada had to rely on conscripts I bet it would be far more difficult to get most Canadians to support invasions. Maybe I'm just wrong about Canadians

Treating volunteers shabbily by the politicians seems to go with the territory. If they were conscripts they'd have something more tangible to complain about. I have a friend who ferry's volunteer army rangers up and down the coast with his old wooden boat. It's interesting to note his boat doesn't have to pass any of the steamship inspections or apply the sorts of safety rules that civilians do. Life seems cheaper when you're in the army. I guess that shouldn't be surprising in an institution whose purpose is to kill human beings.

You do understand that conscription means you have no choice but to go. It could be your kids or grandkids after all. What I am getting here is that anyone who goes to a war that you approve of should be taken care of, any who don't can go to hell. This is your concept of all being in it together as a country.

You should be thanking your lucky stars that there are people willing to volunteer to fight in wars you don't approve of.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Wilber

[Big Guy]

Those who are of have been in the military understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside the military understand.

Those who are of have been firefighters understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside firefighting understand.

Those who are of have been in law enforcement understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside law enforcement understand.

All are difficult careers, all are dangerous and no one is forced to enter into any of them.

PTSD or any other disability inflicted on an individual in any or all of these careers, as a result of their job, should be accommodated by our governments.

An aside to Wilber - "You should be thanking your lucky stars that there are people willing to volunteer to fight in wars you don't approve of." Please expand. That does not appear to be logical.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Big Guy

[Army Guy]

They have zero say whatsoever? I thought there were accommodations for matters of conscience, not unlike the discretion which can be granted to a religious person who doesn't want to do something that goes against their beliefs.

Perhaps there is some confusion on the topic. If our nation declares war on a nation then all of it's soldiers do not have a choice, by law a member has signed a binding contract to serve his or her nation. so here is the choices, one can apply for objector status and lay out in detail why you can not fight in this conflict....if granted you will be employed else where in the world, or released....this choice is rarely granted....Next choice refuse to go or participate in the conflict, results are you are charged and imprisoned. has not happened since WWII but it is in the laws. Next is to desert or flee, once again you are declared a criminal and hunted down like a dog....until the government grants you freedom....

We say Afghanistan conflict was a volunteer conflict because most soldiers thought it was worth it....their comrades where going so they left as well...However in reality not everyone was in the same boat specialized jobs with low numbers were often told your going it is your turn, also the higher your rank the fewer you are those gentlemen and ladies were also told they were going.....everyone has a choice they could make, a refusal here would mean your career would halt, or release from a job they love doing, leaving behind comrads, and living with a guilty conscience the rest of your life.... ......it is after all the job we signed up to do and what we trained to do, hence why most just stuck up there hands.....now or later they were thinking.....remember we only have less than 68,000 military members of that only 15,000 or slightly more are combat soldiers, and 3800 every 6 months your number comes up quick....to give you an idea the Average infantry SGT will have done 4 or more tours...most 6 to 8 months long....

The military does accommodate those soldiers with special reasons, such as religion, I remember a Ex muslim flight engineer was refused because the Israelis government did not want him in the country, anyone that the enemy would single out for special treatment were also questioned, for instance Jewish members were briefed on the possible consequences of getting captured....and they still put up their hands....

Why, well conscience is a too way street, how does someone decide to stay back when your brothers in arms are going, how would you cope if anything happened to a close friend....or to someone in your section that maybe your actions could of prevented....Like I said before many times this is not like any other job but a way of life, built around loyalty, honor, sacrifice....Yes they chose to do this job, and in the process feel in love with the comradeship, people, traditions and everything else that goes with it.....It changes who you are, to the point you don't want to leave it....or don't want to try something else....

[dre]

Those who are of have been in the military understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside the military understand.

Those who are of have been firefighters understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside firefighting understand.

Those who are of have been in law enforcement understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside law enforcement understand.

All are difficult careers, all are dangerous and no one is forced to enter into any of them.

PTSD or any other disability inflicted on an individual in any or all of these careers, as a result of their job, should be accommodated by our governments.

An aside to Wilber - "You should be thanking your lucky stars that there are people willing to volunteer to fight in wars you don't approve of." Please expand. That does not appear to be logical.

I never found being a firefighter difficult. It was probably the funnest job I've ever done. And its not necessarily true that these careers are very dangerous. Like I said before being a soldier is safer than being in the general population.

The idolatry placed on these specific occupations is mostly cultural, and its heavily promoted by the government which of course has an interest in people fawning after its security apparatus.

Like any occupation there's a lot of different types of people that sign up for a variety of reasons. They should be treated with respect but no more so than the rest of our workforce, many of whom do much more dangerous jobs. As for mental disorders they are endemic across the entire Canadian workforce. 20% of Canadians are diagnosed with mental illness at least one time in their life.

[Wilber]

Those who are of have been in the military understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside the military understand.

Those who are of have been firefighters understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside firefighting understand.

Those who are of have been in law enforcement understand what that job is like and the stresses that are applied that few people outside law enforcement understand.

All are difficult careers, all are dangerous and no one is forced to enter into any of them.

PTSD or any other disability inflicted on an individual in any or all of these careers, as a result of their job, should be accommodated by our governments.

An aside to Wilber - "You should be thanking your lucky stars that there are people willing to volunteer to fight in wars you don't approve of." Please expand. That does not appear to be logical.

My son is a police officer and ERT member. They are very good at covering up stress and sometimes the cost is high. It is a source of concern for us. We had two officers commit suicide last year in a force of just over 200. It may sound hokey to the cynical but he really did join the police force to serve his community and make a difference. I have no reason to think most of those who join the military didn't do so with the same motives.

I will expand.

Eyeball thinks conscription is the way to go and people should have no choice when it comes to serving in the military and what they are required to do when in it. He should thank his lucky stars that isn't the case because it might have been him when he was younger and it might be his kids or grandkids, now or in the future.

[dre]

He should thank his lucky stars that isn't the case because it might have been him when he was younger and it might be his kids or grandkids, now or in the future.

So what if it was him? Its probably a better and safer job than what he has now.

[Big Guy]

I never found being a firefighter difficult.

...

I congratulate you. You must be an exceptional individual.

I lost an extended family member when he was killed while fighting a fire. I am also friends to a few retired firefighters who had to retire early because of breathing problems and other physical disability - all as a result of doing their jobs.

A number of members of our local Legion are retired firefighters, retired law enforcement (especially RCMP) and serving and retired soldiers.

[Army Guy]

Who puts what on the line? Being a soldier in Canada is safer than just being in the general population. They risk LESS than most other workers. Being a US soldier deployed in Iraq during the most dangerous year (2007) was safer than attending high-school in east LA.

Eyeball is a fisherman... Its the second most dangerous job on the planet with fatality rates upwards of 100 per 100k.

It was not my intention to turn this discussion into a dick measuring contest, There are plenty of jobs that involve more risk than going to IRAQ or Afghanistan....Not sure where you going with this, other than to say the risked soldiers face in combat are minimal, not as dangerous as going to high school or fishing....both of which I have done, and trust me there were thousands of times during my tours in Afghanistan that is exactly where I wished I was.....the years between 08 an 10 were the worst i'd seen, leaving the safety of the wire, meant getting blown up in an IED strike , we would tell the newbies it is not IF we hit an IED but when as it was going to happen.....not sure if you know what 500 lbs of explosives does to an armoured veh.....or it's occupants but after seeing some of your comrads, turned to jello it plays on your mind....every day, every KM you drive, every fresh pot hole.....and if I asked me to work on a lobster or crab boat during those days, I would have taken it in a heart beat.....

During my 3 tours of duty I buried 8 of the best people I know, and seen 21 maimed or crippled.....that is my story....most vets can tell you the same....it does not make my job any easier, or less risky that is not the point....the point is I did we did those things in the name of our nation......and now are asking for help ....if it is too much to ask just say so,

[dre]

I congratulate you. You must be an exceptional individual.

I lost an extended family member when he was killed while fighting a fire. I am also friends to a few retired firefighters who had to retire early because of breathing problems and other physical disability - all as a result of doing their jobs.

A number of members of our local Legion are retired firefighters, retired law enforcement (especially RCMP) and serving and retired soldiers.

To be fair, I was a volunteer fireman for only about 5 years.

My point was though that these jobs are not "special" in terms of how dangerous they are. The idolatry placed on these occupations is cultural and based on a kind of mythology. Workers in many other occupations sacrifice more for less and are treated worse.

The occupations we are talking about (firefighter, cop, soldier) are actually pretty good jobs, that are quite safe and pay reasonably well.

“It’s a tough job but someone’s got to do it” – that’s the kind of thing you’d expect a burly cop or firefighter to say.

But in terms of workplace hazards, firefighters and police officers are relative lightweights compared to workers at greatest risk for job-related accidents, and death.

Of all the dangerous jobs out there, loggers take the prize for putting their lives at greatest risk, according to FinancesOnline.com.

Clearly, risky careers don’t pay. They tend to be blue-collar occupations, according to this list of top 10 most dangerous jobs (and their biggest hazards):Nevertheless, despite dangers that include falling trees and cutting equipment, the average Canadian logger earns a paltry $26,500 a year – if he is lucky enough to get full-time work, according to Service Canada.

1. Loggers: falling trees, cutting equipment.

2. Fisheries workers: drowning, heavy equipment.

3. Pilots and flight engineers: air disturbances, high altitudes, takeoffs and landings.

4. Roofers: falling from heights, heat stroke in summer.

5. Structural iron and steel workers: falling from heights, heavy materials, welding.

6. Garbage and recyclables collectors: hazardous materials, heavy equipment, road accidents.

7. Electrical power line installers and repairers: electricity, falling from heights.

8. Truck drivers and mobile sales workers: road accidents, exhaustion.

9. Farmers, ranchers, agricultural managers: heavy equipment, large animals.

10. Construction workers: dangerous equipment and large animals.

[dre]

During my 3 tours of duty I buried 8 of the best people I know, and seen 21 maimed or crippled.....that is my story....most vets can tell you the same....it does not make my job any easier, or less risky that is not the point....the point is I did we did those things in the name of our nation......and now are asking for help ....if it is too much to ask just say so.

You did those things because it was the job you took. And I'm fine with you getting help, but help is needed across the entire blue-collar Canadian workforce. Id like to see a holistic approach to improving the lives of Canadian workers, addressing mental health issues, etc.

[Wilber]

You did those things because it was the job you took. And I'm fine with you getting help, but help is needed across the entire blue-collar Canadian workforce. Id like to see a holistic approach to improving the lives of Canadian workers, addressing mental health issues, etc.

Why just blue collar workers? To me, that's just an excuse to do nothing.

[WestCoastRunner]

To be fair, I was a volunteer fireman for only about 5 years.

My point was though that these jobs are not "special" in terms of how dangerous they are. The idolatry placed on these occupations is cultural and based on a kind of mythology. Workers in many other occupations sacrifice more for less and are treated worse.

The occupations we are talking about (firefighter, cop, soldier) are actually pretty good jobs, that are quite safe and pay reasonably well.

I never really thought about the military in these terms. Thank you and Eyeball for providing a unique perspective. Edited March 12, 2016 by WestCoastRunner

[Army Guy]

The fact remains being a soldier in Canada is safer than not being one.

And nobody forces anyone to become a soldier OR a fisherman. People who sign up for either know what they are getting into.

That's irrelevant. The fatality rate is still higher.

It is nice to cherry pick your numbers to suit your needs, why go back to 1972 what is so magical about those numbers, and then stop in 2006, when the Afghan mission was just getting cranked up....while one does not have to be a rocket scientist to see why it was to dilute the numbers...our military was not involved in combat ops at those times.....but rather peace keeping.

Hardly makes your source valuable does it....Nor does it back up your claim that service in Afghanistan was not as risky as say a fishermen's.....

So I came up with some my own numbers.....That reflect the situation as you claimed it.....There are 3 Infantry Regts in Canada, made up of 3 Bn's each, each bn has approx. 650 pers in it.....for a grand total of 5850 infantry soldiers....

158 soldiers died of them 125 of them are infantry soldiers....

2179 soldiers were wounded of them 1540 are Infantry soldiers....

for a total of 1665 soldiers wounded or killed in action.....

Just as a note I took out all those infantry reserve guys so not to inflate the numbers.....Right now without doing the math it might be as high as 33 % chance of getting wounded or killed.....

How high was those numbers for the fishermen again, what about the high school are they as high as 33 % . But just to be realistic here I would say approx. 25 %.... as numbers of Infantry flux a bit during the Afghan years....that would be a 1 in 4 chance of getting wounded or killed.....

[eyeball]

Eyeball thinks conscription is the way to go and people should have no choice when it comes to serving in the military and what they are required to do when in it.

It's why I think conscription is the way to go. You ignored it because you know damn well it would be a lot harder to convince Canadians to invade other people and no politician would dare to suggest it.

It's a lot easier to conscript people's money than people.

Edited March 12, 2016 by eyeball

[Wilber]

It's why I think conscription is the way to go. You ignored it because you know damn well it would be a lot harder to convince Canadians to invade other people and no politician would dare to suggest it.

It's a lot easier to conscript people's money than people.

So anyone who is conscripted and decides to obey the law and go is no different from a volunteer to you.

[WestCoastRunner]

It's why I think conscription is the way to go. You ignored it because you know damn well it would be a lot harder to convince Canadians to invade other people and no politician would dare to suggest it.

It's a lot easier to conscript people's money than people.

If we had conscription, wouldn't voters just toss the government that introduced it and we are back to where we started?

[dre]

Why just blue collar workers? To me, that's just an excuse to do nothing.

I never said "JUST" blue collar workers.

[eyeball]

If we had conscription, wouldn't voters just toss the government that introduced it and we are back to where we started?

Probably, except we'd also likely proceed from there with a more aware and skeptical populace and less emboldened politicians.

Edited March 12, 2016 by eyeball

[eyeball]

So anyone who is conscripted and decides to obey the law and go is no different from a volunteer to you.

Okay Wilber I get it, you support the war, without any questions.

Do you see what I just did there?

Edited March 12, 2016 by eyeball

[dre]

Hardly makes your source valuable does it....Nor does it back up your claim that service in Afghanistan was not as risky as say a fishermen's.....

Not sure what you are on about here. I never made any such claim. And you're the one cherry picking numbers by only counting certain roles. That would be like me deriving stats on fishing fatalities from a set that only included fisherman who fished in huge storms.

The statistics are clear... being a Canadian soldier is safer than being an average Canadian civilian.