Army Guy Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I just was reading some of the recent status updates in particular the one on the liberals canceling or side lining the war memorial. and the outrage it has caused....http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/afghan-war-memorial-in-limbo-as-liberals-roll-back-perceived-tory-militarism As a military veteran of that conflict I wanted to share a few thoughts.... Is this really the best way we can honor our Afghan vets, by building something out of stone , putting a few names on a wall that most will not even know or care about. That most vets will never see in the first place. If I had a choice between this wall, or using that funding to really help our vets that truly need it then I vote for the latter.....This is just another example of the dead and wounded of this conflict being used as a political event...only this time to some how denounce the liberals and their treatment of vets.... Make no mistake I am no liberal big L or little l, my believes are conservative with a capitol C....but I also give credit where it is due....The liberal government has taken steps to undo what was in my opinion a great disservice to the military and it's vets.....and under the Harper government they failed to live up to the responsibility of looking after our troops and vets.... Yes the government has created a few programs to that on the outside look very good, and yet there our vets who we once held up as heros for photo ops still today face massive hurdles , such as proving year after year injuries were indeed received in battle, having to prove injuries were a result of military service...Still trying to solve the PTSD issues that not only plague the military but every first responder police, fire fighters, EMT techs.....Having to fight with the same government that had not issue with deploying our troops for simple benefits. cutting the red tape takes a bull dozer to do. and trying to explain to those people you ultimately decide on who gets what is frustrating beyond belief....They have absolutely no idea what the military even does, and are paid to monitor the bottom dollar instead of making sure our vets get the help they need. There are more programs out there right now for our vets most of them are privately funded, some get government assistance but not all. It is truly a sad day, when our nation turns it back on it's vets....who have given everything and more.... Keep the memorial , and put the funding into the care of our vets.... While the Harper government has been credited with being pro military, they never really did all that much. Nothing that was not already popular with the people, things soldiers had already paid for in their blood....Don't get me wrong the liberals had a worse record....but the harper government track record is hardly something to hold up a cheer for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 I agree that the money directed to creating memorials to war should be used to assist the veterans themselves. While acknowledging the military dead is done every year on Nov 11, acknowledging the living who have seen action on our behalf, is a far better way of satisfying our debt. I too believe that those who have been wounded in battle deserve full financial support to make them whole again. The only dark spot is that some in the military do make it more difficult for others. The number of PTSD claims has doubled over the last few years with many of those from personnel who have not seen action. It wastes a lot of money separating the valid claims from those that are not valid. Some of the old vets are troubled with finances going into that direction and away from the old vets. I do appreciate what service the military volunteers perform. I also place that service in same importance and danger category as that of law enforcement officers and fire fighters. All are volunteer services and deserve full support for any disability created by performance of their service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoke Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 First, I have not claimed there's any outrage. Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the left. Please don't get me wrong Army Guy, I respect what you do and like others, I am always impressed with your (very knowledgeable) insight into the military. However, and once again, to me anyway, it's more of the same old same old.....gov't. employees wanting more and more. The issue of programs and compensation for our military is one thing and memorials are another. Memorials and other forms of symbology are, and always will be, an important part of the Canadian fabric. But I guess we should just cancel them all so we can pay our gov't. employees more. Of course vets would be happier if the money earmarked for a memorial went to them instead. To me, it's not unlike teachers, who complain about the situation that they themselves chose, and the school boards don't have money for supplies because the teachers take the money for increased salaries. We need teachers and we need our military and our police and nurses and firefighters. Yes they are all noble jobs, but they are only jobs nonetheless. Sorry if you find this insulting, but it's the way I feel, and until I see gov't. employees being more responsible in their demands, I will continue to feel that way without the shame that is typically heaped on those opposing gov't. salaries by the left, who in my opinion, make up the bulk of gov't. employees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Call it what you will, fact is your not happy with the decision, and have pointed it in the direction of the liberal government. And my counter point to yours was the Cons did not do much better, yes overall they did spend more funding on the military, but most of that funding was spent because soldiers paid for it in their blood, for instance replacement of Ilitis jeeps, came at the cost of 4 soldiers killed in a IED attack, the list goes on, and on and the equipment they did end up getting was just enough to solve the problem in Afghanistan, not the entire military.... They were forced to make those buys because of public opinion.....DND briefs government officials daily on the needs and wants not to mention all the photo ops the government had with the troops over there, they were told straight from the horses mouth what we needed to get the job done....and it was ignored until enough soldiers had died or where wounded......That is not the actions of a responsible government....So while history will show the country that the Cons treated the military better than the liberals , well sir the bar was not set very high..... That's where I see the hypocrisy of the whole issue.... Thanks for the praise. It was not my intention to single you out but rather offer another thought on this issue , and could not respond with all of this rant in the status update . I understand your frustrations you have when it comes to government employees, I too feel the same way , the pay and benefits packages are some what higher than the civilian work place. And while it is true the Armed forces members are considered government employees , I think that is where the comparison ends. As a member of the DND you sign on to what is called unlimited liability, which translates into your employer can order you to your death if the situation calls for it.....Not many civilians jobs can do that. There is no over time in the military, which means you can be asked to work beyond anything that is reasonable....depending on the situation one could be asked to work weeks on end with very little sleep...try getting a Government employee to do that....there are some benefits like free medical, dental, for members only, there is other benefits such as field pay which I believe is around 11 dollars a day, which is to pay you fro being worked 22 hours each day....Jump pay , Danger pay, diving pay, all taxed hazardous duty pay which is based on the threat level and time already spent in a combat zone.....which amounts to maybe a half months wage is tax free....on top of our pay...But one has to put all of that into perspective as well , to earn that a soldier must be in combat, or face a very high level of risk.....meaning death, sleeping in a dirt hole, with cold rations to eat, and luke warm water to drink, and survive 55 degree heat during the day, and 20 degrees during the night, all while wearing close to 30 pounds of extra clothing and equipment, not counting what your ruck sack weighs in at , mine use to top 110 lbs.....I think by anyone standards the soldiers earn those bonuses..... Other than that the military is not at the top of the government employee pay bracket, not even close....RCMP, Fire fighters, are paid much more than our nations soldiers, I won't get into other governmental desk jobs who wages I could only dream about....What I will say is you won't find many soldiers complaining how much they earn, compared to say just 20 years ago, we had soldiers going to food banks, working 2 jobs, or applying for welfare....hence why we don't complain much now....so we have been on the other side of the table..... I guess what I am trying to say is it is not just a job....it is a way of life....it develops bonds between soldiers that last a life time, it develops character, who else would spend weeks on end with little food and water in minus 25 below weather, when everything you own is wet and cold....Not your typical government worker I bet.....It's not a glamour job or all that special of a job, but it does take a special kind of person to do it....it's not for everyone....it comes with a lot of personal sacrifice , like being torn away from family and friends at a moments notice, missing out on your kids growing up, first home run, first school play, first date.....to be thrown in the middle of some shit hole to do peace keeping, peace making or just there to help out Canadian citizens in their time of need....it has always been service before self....How many government employees can you say do all of that.... For me there is a gap several miles wide that separate the average governmental employee with those that serve our nation....but then again i'm bias.... I think one of the reasons soldiers do what they do is there is some unwritten rule that our nation will look after us if or when they come home broken, physically and mentally. In my eyes it is not us demanding more benefits but trying to collect on a promise that was made to us.....not only by the military, but our government , as well by it's citizens.....How does a nation motivate and send it's young into battle , without these some kind of assurances... A couple of days ago a bunch of old friends gathered for some beers, it is a yearly thing we do to raise a beer and toast fallen comrad's to tell funny stories about them... to laugh, to cry, to celebrate they're lives....we got taking about our own injuries and experiences with VAC, and the military....A close friend of mine has blown up by a donkey IED....sounds funny I know , trust me I has been the brunt of more than a few jokes....any ways the blast threw him and most of the section more than 20 feet , most of us were lucky, he received a large chunk of donkey bone to the upper thigh....and almost bleed out if he had not received medical treat right away he would of....During the course of his surgery they removed a large chunk of muscle and his right testicle.....he is sent home, to recover....recovery takes him almost 8 months....a couple years later he files a claim....it pains him to walk long distances, and he has difficulties to shovel his drive way....his intention was to get his driveway plowed during the winter months....for his injuries VAC sent him a 1500 dollar check , told him he did qualify for anything else....He sent the check back, with a few choice words attached to it.... The waiting period just to get access for mental health problems is 3 months, after that it can take up to a year to get your first appointment to see a shrink....most members wait until things get much worse, they are afraid of leaving the only life they know....remember it is not a job but a way of life....during these waiting times a lot of these guys get into trouble with drugs and alcohol as it makes the mental pain go away....which leads to trouble with the law , and the military chain of command....a lot of these guys will get pushed to the side lines, released from the only thing they loved doing, and forced to fend for themselves.... try getting a job with that hanging over your head....they loose their families, jobs, friends, everything..... These guys are just the PTSD guys there is more, those guys with physical disabilities....loss of limbs, or functions of most body parts, these guys are not being treated fairly, we all read about it in the papers, and yet thousands of voices go unheard.... These are the guys I wish this funding could go to.....instead of relying on the public sector programs for help....these guys don't have access to workmans comp.....nor are they entitled to unemployment what they rely on is the VAC and governmental policies to look after them....the bottom line is we are not living up to any of the promises, The Afghanistan conflict is over with, and they just like the vets before them will soon be forgotten.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyWays Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Army guy - I hear you. Soldiers are not like other civil servants - they are often called on to willingly risk their lives. Instead of lowest-common-denominator or one-size-fits-all approaches, we should always err on the generous/gracious side. Better, more effective advocates/facilitators/ombudsmen to be able to individualize support where required. Whether that make sense or not, for God's sake - don't let these guys go cap-in-hand for benefits that they rightly deserve. As for the Memorial - build it by all means - it's not an either/or proposition. Most soldiers would never see it but we as a nation are already forgetting our history and what made us who we are. As each Canadian passes by the memorial, one hopes that they will grasp the importance of our military and the sacrifices that are sometimes required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 If the government really wants to do something for the soldiers they should stop sending them on fools errands in places like Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Call it what you will, fact is your not happy with the decision, and have pointed it in the direction of the liberal government. And my counter point to yours was the Cons did not do much better, yes overall they did spend more funding on the military, but most of that funding was spent because soldiers paid for it in their blood, for instance replacement of Ilitis jeeps, came at the cost of 4 soldiers killed in a IED attack, the list goes on, and on and the equipment they did end up getting was just enough to solve the problem in Afghanistan, not the entire military.... Military procurement has been a disgrace for decades. At least they were able to get stuff fairly rapidly in Afghanistan. But for the most part, the military's procurement budget is used more for regional economic expansion than for providing the military with the equipment it needs. We spend two to three times more on most of the big-ticket items in order to provide work in various parts of the country. Other than that the military is not at the top of the government employee pay bracket, not even close....RCMP, Fire fighters, are paid much more than our nations soldiers, I won't get into other governmental desk jobs who wages I could only dream about... From what I've seen on the DND pay rate sites soldiers are paid pretty darn well, actually, given most don't have anything but a high school diploma. The bigger problem is way too much administration, too much red tape, too many chiefs and not enough indians. http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/10/30/canadas-military-among-highest-paid-in-the-world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 How do our armed forces compare to others in terms of their treatment? Are we at the bottom of the barrel or on par? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) How do our armed forces compare to others in terms of their treatment? Are we at the bottom of the barrel or on par? I think its on par. Civilian leaders generally abuse the armed forced in most countries. Like I said the biggest slap in the face is making them die in poorly thought out elective wars, and then of course they add insult to injury by sending them on these fools errands without proper equipment. Then to top it all off, the ones that survive don't get proper support once they get home. If we hadn't wasted a decade in Afghanistan with very little to show for it there wouldn't be ANY dead or maimed soldiers, or soldiers with PTSD, and there wouldn't BE any Afghanistan vets. Edited March 11, 2016 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) A question about pay - Does anyone know if the Canadian soldiers who are now in training roles in the middle East receiving in danger and hazard pay? If so, how much? Edited March 11, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) I think its on par. Civilian leaders generally abuse the armed forced in most countries. Like I said the biggest slap in the face is making them die in poorly thought out elective wars, and then of course they add insult to injury by sending them on these fools errands without proper equipment. Then to top it all off, the ones that survive don't get proper support once they get home. If we hadn't wasted a decade in Afghanistan with very little to show for it there wouldn't be ANY dead or maimed soldiers, or soldiers with PTSD, and there wouldn't BE any Afghanistan vets. Doesn't matter whether you agree or not. Pointing fingers at governments is convenient but they went there on the instruction of governments we elected so they are our responsibility. Edited March 11, 2016 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) Doesn't matter whether you agree or not. Pointing fingers at governments is convenient but they went there on the instruction of governments we elected so they are our responsibility.It's not like these guys are conscripts Wilber, they need to take some responsibility for their situation too. If we were talking about any other hard done by worker complaining about their crappy job in this country we'd be telling them to find a better one. If recruits are hard to come by the government will either have to raise their pay or bring in TFW's (temporary foreign warriors). Edited March 11, 2016 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 It's not like these guys are conscripts Wilber, they need to take some responsibility for their situation too. If we were talking about any other hard done by worker complaining about their crappy job in this country we'd be telling them to find a better one. If recruits are hard to come by the government will either have to raise their pay or bring in TFW's (temporary foreign warriors). Your lack of respect for the people who sign up to risk their lives for you is quite depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 The respect for the military fluctuates depending on the success and behavior. In the USA, the early veterans of the Vietnam war were feted as they returned to their home in full uniform, welcomed with bands and civic honors. By the end of that war, veterans were being yelled at as "child killers", condemned by much of the American populace, many hiding their uniforms and slipping quietly back home. Here in Canada, the Harper government needed support for the Afghanistan expedition so it proposed that those in the military were "heroes" who should be applauded and cheered no matter what was happening on the ground. Harper was able to equate support for the war with support for the troops. Remember - "Stand behind your troops or stand in front", and "Taliban Jack", the red ribbon campaign et al. Anyone disagreeing with the war were traitors to their troops and traitors to their country. It worked for a while until things started to "go south". With Canadian body bags coming home and the Taliban able to withstand our best efforts the tone changed. My position is that our military is composed of good people who have decided on a career in the services. They are no more heroes than police or firefighters, who have also chosen those careers knowing what dangers they represent. Nothing more, nothing less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) My position is that our military is composed of good people who have decided on a career in the services. They are no more heroes than police or firefighters, who have also chosen those careers knowing what dangers they represent. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not about being heroes, it's about a moral contract with people who have volunteered to put their lives on the line on our behalf. It's the attitude of people like you and eyeball that allows our governments to get away with treating these people so shabbily. They are different from police or firefighters. For one thing police and firefighters are unionized and can negotiate their working conditions. You can't order a police officer or fireman to kill someone or put themselves in a position where there is a very good chance of them being killed. A member of the military gets no say in the matter as long as any orders they are given are legal. That is why AG says they sign up for unlimited liability. Edited March 11, 2016 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Your lack of respect for the people who sign up to risk their lives for you is quite depressing. I'm sorry you feel that way. If we were talking about people who were sent to repel an invading army I'd feel a lot more charitable. I feel just as disrespected and depressed by having to take responsibility for our involvement in a morally reprehensible, destructive and unnecessary war halfway around the planet, even more so now considering the sort of sordid people we're allied with and the humanitarian disaster we helped create. Besides hanging their heads in shame, Canadians who supported sending volunteers should be donating to their cause and investing in war bonds - which should also be used to pay for the aftermath and consequences. You can pay for the memorial to it while you're at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 I'm sorry you feel that way. If we were talking about people who were sent to repel an invading army I'd feel a lot more charitable. I feel just as disrespected and depressed by having to take responsibility for our involvement in a morally reprehensible, destructive and unnecessary war halfway around the planet, even more so now considering the sort of sordid people we're allied with and the humanitarian disaster we helped create. Besides hanging their heads in shame, Canadians who supported sending volunteers should be donating to their cause and investing in war bonds - which should also be used to pay for the aftermath and consequences. You can pay for the memorial to it while you're at it. The subject is the responsible treatment of our injured vets, not your feelings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 A member of the military gets no say in the matter as long as any orders they are given are legal. That is why AG says they sign up for unlimited liability. They have zero say whatsoever? I thought there were accommodations for matters of conscience, not unlike the discretion which can be granted to a religious person who doesn't want to do something that goes against their beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 The subject is the responsible treatment of our injured vets, not your feelings. Then why is the plight of injured vets being being tied in with a memorial to a politically and ethically divisive war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Then why is the plight of injured vets being being tied in with a memorial to a politically and ethically divisive war? Again , it is about how we treat people who have served this country unconditionally, not about what you feel is politically or ethically divisive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) Well, they should either start serving conditionally or accept more of the consequences. Nobody was forced to go and the days of cannon fodder dying for King and Country with no say whatsoever are behind us. It's definitely about how individuals feel now. Edited March 11, 2016 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Well, they should either start serving conditionally or accept more of the consequences. Nobody was forced to go and the days of cannon fodder dying for King and Country with no say whatsoever are behind us. So if other countries decided to start fishing wherever and whenever they wanted on our coasts, I could just say Meh,not my problem, old eyeball should just find himself another occupation or place to live and you would be OK with any of our armed forces personnel who decided to opt out because they felt the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 (edited) They have zero say whatsoever? I thought there were accommodations for matters of conscience, not unlike the discretion which can be granted to a religious person who doesn't want to do something that goes against their beliefs. Not that I know of, nor can a police officer decide which laws he will or won't enforce based on his religious beliefs. Edited March 11, 2016 by Wilber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Doesn't matter whether you agree or not. Pointing fingers at governments is convenient but they went there on the instruction of governments we elected so they are our responsibility. I understand that the citizenry is responsible... especially since the civilian leaders that embarked on these projects were greatly aided by millions of useful idiots cheering them on from the safety of their living rooms while the soldiers had to do the fighting and dying. And yes... it IS our responsibility to treat veterans of these useless wars properly. But even more importantly its our responsibility to make sure we don't frivolously waste their lives in the future. It's not about being heroes, it's about a moral contract with people who have volunteered to put their lives on the line onour behalf. It's the attitude of people like you and eyeball that allows our governments to get away with treating these people so shabbily. No it really isn't. Its the cavalier outlook towards armed conflict by a nation of people that get to watch it on TV and risk nothing, and civilian leadership that embarks on projects they don't even understand, and put our troops in positions where they dont even know who the enemy is.. never mind what will be considered winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 I understand that the citizenry is responsible... especially since the civilian leaders that embarked on these projects were greatly aided by millions of useful idiots cheering them on from the safety of their living rooms while the soldiers had to do the fighting and dying. And yes... it IS our responsibility to treat veterans of these useless wars properly. But even more importantly its our responsibility to make sure we don't frivolously waste their lives in the future. No it really isn't. Its the cavalier outlook towards armed conflict by a nation of people that get to watch it on TV and risk nothing, and civilian leadership that embarks on projects they don't even understand, and put our troops in positions where they dont even know who the enemy is.. never mind what will be considered winning. Whatever, this simply about treating a group of people properly, not about your or my politics or idiology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.