eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 So if other countries decided to start fishing wherever and whenever they wanted on our coasts, I could just say Meh,not my problem, Interesting analogy you're trying to make, whatever it is. As it happens that's pretty much exactly what happened out in the Pacific. Ottawa caved on every front when it came to other countries violating international law around transboundary stocks and overfishing. It was easier to just get rid of Canadian fishermen rather than fight. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 Interesting analogy you're trying to make, whatever it is. As it happens that's pretty much exactly what happened out in the Pacific. Ottawa caved on every front when it came to other countries violating international law around transboundary stocks and overfishing. It was easier to just get rid of Canadian fishermen rather than fight. That has nothing to do with the personnel in our military, they would do whatever they were ordered to do. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 Not that I know of, nor can a police officer decide which laws he will or won't enforce based on his religious beliefs. Nobody had a gun to their heads. Several conscientious objectors have been released by Canadian forces, records show As for conscription, that's still very much alive and well and reserved for our dollars however... A Guide to Conscientious Objection to Military Taxation Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 Thanks for making my point. You can't be a conscientious objector and be a member of the military. Your second link "Canada could become a bold, peacemaking nation. Imagine if well-trained, un-armed Canadians intervened in conflict zones around the world" Sending unarmed Canadians into conflict zones. When are you volunteering? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 The day you start buying war bonds to pay for our invasions, in the meantime I think I'll send a cheque to the folks at COMT. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 Thanks for making my point. You can't be a conscientious objector and be a member of the military. The point was that nobody was forced to go. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 The day you start buying war bonds to pay for our invasions, in the meantime I think I'll send a cheque to the folks at COMT. Fill you boots but pay your taxes like everyone else. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 I have faith there will be a day when a Canadian can opt to redirect their conscripted dollars to more ethically and morally palatable ventures. It's only a matter of time. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 The point was that nobody was forced to go. The point is you can't pick and chose where you go and remain in the military unless the military lets you. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 So you leave the military. Nobody is pointing a gun at their back or holding a loved one hostage. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dialamah Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 The point was that nobody was forced to go. Soldiers are trained to obey and while it may be true that they can refuse certain duties, I very much doubt it's that simple in real life. Part of the goal of the army (as I understand it) is to build camaraderie, to teach them they can rely on each other, to build a cohesive unit because in a military setting they must be able to trust and rely on each other. If someone decides they can't take part in a particular fight due to conscious, they are likely to be seen essentially as traitors by their comrades. I just don't see that as being an easy thing for a soldier to do. I think that regardless of whether or not I agree with the war we're sending people to fight in (and rarely do), the people who go to those wars on our behalf deserve and should get the very best treatment on their return. That's one of the many reasons I pay taxes, and one of the reasons I do not believe that governments should focus on lowering taxes to the exclusion of everything else. We're in this together, and people should be the priority - not the government bottom line. Quote
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 Soldiers are trained to obey and while it may be true that they can refuse certain duties, I very much doubt it's that simple in real life. Part of the goal of the army (as I understand it) is to build camaraderie, to teach them they can rely on each other, to build a cohesive unit because in a military setting they must be able to trust and rely on each other. If someone decides they can't take part in a particular fight due to conscious, they are likely to be seen essentially as traitors by their comrades. I just don't see that as being an easy thing for a soldier to do. Matters of conscience are rarely easy on anyone and I suspect a lot of PTSD is due to conflicted conscience. I think that regardless of whether or not I agree with the war we're sending people to fight in (and rarely do), the people who go to those wars on our behalf deserve and should get the very best treatment on their return. That's one of the many reasons I pay taxes, and one of the reasons I do not believe that governments should focus on lowering taxes to the exclusion of everything else. We're in this together, and people should be the priority - not the government bottom line. Yes we are in this together and I feel torn and like I'm being treated as shabbily as soldiers when I'm told what I should support and why I'm such a shitty person for not getting it. I think a lot of non-combatants are feeling a little PTSD too. I know I keep feeling more alienated, depressed and disengaged from it all. Does anyone know how to stop caring? How do you turn that off? I can't figure it out and I can't stand it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 Matters of conscience are rarely easy on anyone and I suspect a lot of PTSD is due to conflicted conscience. Yes we are in this together and I feel torn and like I'm being treated as shabbily as soldiers when I'm told what I should support and why I'm such a shitty person for not getting it. I think a lot of non-combatants are feeling a little PTSD too. I know I keep feeling more alienated, depressed and disengaged from it all. Does anyone know how to stop caring? How do you turn that off? I can't figure it out and I can't stand it. Poor you, the expert on PTSD who has put nothing on the line for your country, you are just whining about having to be a Canadian. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 Eyeball. If you read Army Guy's post, it says nothing about supporting a war. It is about how this country treats the people who are damaged physically and mentally on its behalf. We shouldn't need to poll every individual Canadian on their personal beliefs in order to treat such people fairly. It isn't about you or me. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 I was a volunteer fireman for several years. I don't mind putting my life on the line it's my principles I'm not willing to part with. That's what makes it about me. You do what you gotta do right? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 I was a volunteer fireman for several years. I don't mind putting my life on the line it's my principles I'm not willing to part with. That's what makes it about me. You do what you gotta do right? No one is asking you to depart with your principles, they just aren't relevant to this topic. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 We shouldn't need to poll every individual Canadian on their personal beliefs in order to treat such people fairly. It isn't about you or me. We should be polling every individual Canadian and requiring a super-majority to ensure soldiers have the unequivocal support of the country before our country's principles are placed on the line. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) No one is asking you to depart with your principles, they just aren't relevant to this topic. I entirely disagree, our feelings and individual principles are the only things that matter when it comes to invading other countries and killing people. Edited March 12, 2016 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 We should be polling every individual Canadian and requiring a super-majority to ensure soldiers have the unequivocal support of the country before our country's principles are placed on the line. That's why we elect governments. Just for the sake of argument, if a poll was taken and it didn't go your way, what then? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 I entirely disagree, our feelings and individual principles are the only things that matter when it comes to invading other countries and killing people. So it would be fine with you if they were just turned out on the street when they got home. You don't give a crap about them because your government sent them somewhere you didn't like. Is that what you stand for? Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 That's why we elect governments. Just for the sake of argument, if a poll was taken and it didn't go your way, what then? I'd probably say quit pissing around, fight to win and get it over with so we can put it behind us. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Wilber Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 I'd probably say quit pissing around, fight to win and get it over with so we can put it behind us. What about your principles? Anyway, I'm tired of talking about your feelings. I apologize for my part in the thread drift. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
dre Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) Poor you, the expert on PTSD who has put nothing on the line for your country, you are just whining about having to be a Canadian. Who puts what on the line? Being a soldier in Canada is safer than just being in the general population. They risk LESS than most other workers. Being a US soldier deployed in Iraq during the most dangerous year (2007) was safer than attending high-school in east LA. OTTAWA — Despite the obvious risks faced by military personnel, new data shows Canadian soldiers have a significantly lower death rate than the general population. Statistics Canada’s Canadian Forces Cancer and Mortality Study, which looked at health information for soldiers over a period spanning more than three decades, shows those who enlisted in the Canadian Forces between the start of 1972 and the end of 2006 had a 35% lower chance of dying of any cause within those years in Canada than the average person in this country. Eyeball is a fisherman... Its the second most dangerous job on the planet with fatality rates upwards of 100 per 100k. Edited March 12, 2016 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 So it would be fine with you if they were just turned out on the street when they got home. Not if they were conscripted. You don't give a crap about them because your government sent them somewhere you didn't like. Is that what you stand for? I don't give a crap because neither of these two give me the time of day when it comes to questioning the reasons for being involved in this stupid war to start with. Then I'm cast as being with the enemy. That's supposed to be conducive to my support, how? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 12, 2016 Report Posted March 12, 2016 That's it then. I'm sending my conscripted dollars to a veteran's group dealing with the PTSD of conscience stricken soldiers. Any ideas on who that might be Army Guy? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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