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Justin Trudeau and the USA Relations


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He was pissed at the guy who wanted to join him in that war? The reality is, he didn't care about Harper. Not many people outside of Canada did.

Canada joined in the Iraq war? http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/03/19/canada-iraq-war_n_2902305.html

I know you used to care about Harper but we know how that the ol' bandwagon works.

Why did the Liberal Martin throw an official dinner for Bush? How does that fit into your theory?

Citation request.

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Harper was running for office when Bush was throwing two of his three state dinners. The other dinner had the Queen of England and was the first state dinner in four years. Obviously Bush was still pissed at Canada for not joining in Iraq.

Any other questions?

We really need to commemorate this extremely fortuitous decision...maybe a stamp or something...a middle finger superimposed on a conflated US/British flag. What do you think?
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Actually, we did more for the American effort in Iraq than most of the coalition partners there, but, go back and read what I said. Harper wanted to go to Iraq when Chretien said no.

I know you used to care about Harper but we know how that the ol' bandwagon works.

I live inside of Canada, not outside of it. If someone attacks Harper for the things I defended him for in the past, I generally defend him still. That said, with the benefit of hindsight, I think some of the things he was doing were wrong.

Citation request.

Sure thing:

Tuesday evening, 700 dignitaries, including the Premiers of Canada’s provinces, federal Cabinet Ministers, MPs, former Liberal Prime Ministers John Turner and Jean Chrétien, Canadian and US Ambassadors, assembled for a state dinner in President Bush’s honour in the Grand Hall of the Canadian Museum of Civilization, just across the Ottawa River in Gatineau.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/eppp-archive/100/205/300/liberal-ef/05-02-22/05-02-22/www.liberal.ca/news_e.aspx@type=news&news=897

They actually called it a state dinner, but I don't recall Adrien Clarkson being there. They actually don't mention her either, meaning it would have been an official dinner, as far as I understand the differences in term.

Edited by Smallc
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Harper wanted to go to Iraq when Chretien said no.

Do you honestly think the US president knows/cares what the leader of the opposition had to say about the Iraq war. More importantly, do you think the people of the United States, who are watching this dinner as some sort of celebrity fest, would care what he said. Canada was not like by the US due to us 'officially' backing out of the war. You wanted an answer as to why Harper wasn't invited and I gave it.

I live inside of Canada, not outside of it. If someone attacks Harper for the things I defended him for in the past, I generally defend him still. That said, with the benefit of hindsight, I think some of the things he was doing were wrong.

Sure...whatever you say.

They actually called it a state dinner, but I don't recall Adrien Clarkson being there. They actually don't mention her either, meaning it would have been an official dinner, as far as I understand the differences in term.

1. As you state, they called this a state dinner but it was really an official dinner. So basically they fed the US entourage while attending a working visit. The purpose of the visit was not a dinner.

2. The media circus surrounding this recent dinner had everything to do with the US state dinners, not Canadian ones. More over, the honour of being invited and the lack of honour from not being invited as if its some sort of huge deal. We haven't been invited since 1997 as though its such a big deal when the reality is that 6 out of 7 dinners have shown a partisan connection which shows credibility to the point that these dinners are not an objecitve way at looking at how the Canada US relationship is doing.

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Do you honestly think the US president knows/cares what the leader of the opposition had to say about the Iraq war.

If he didn't know, that just proves my point further - Bush and most non Canadians didn't care about Harper. Trudeau, so far, is different.

Sure...whatever you say.

Sure.

As you state, they called this a state dinner but it was really an official dinner. So basically they fed the US entourage while attending a working visit. The purpose of the visit was not a dinner.

It's an official dinner because it was put on by the Government and the Prime Minister. In Canada, official dinners are probably more of an honour than a state dinner, as they're the ones hosted by the active executive.

The media circus surrounding this recent dinner had everything to do with the US state dinners, not Canadian ones.

My point was, your formula doesn't always hold true.

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If he didn't know, that just proves my point further - Bush and most non Canadians didn't care about Harper. Trudeau, so far, is different.

My point is they didn't care about Harper when he was the leader of the opposition. Just like they didn't know about Trudeau when he was just the leader of the Liberals. Of course if you want to digress further we can talk about what else the Americans don't care about which has nothing to do with my point of partisan politics being at play with the US state dinners.

Sure.

You are for now....but just wait till the next election to see which horse you're backing then.

It's an official dinner because it was put on by the Government and the Prime Minister. In Canada, official dinners are probably more of an honour than a state dinner, as they're the ones hosted by the active executive.

Great. So you have shown one time in Canada where they fed the President and entourage for their working trip. You have yet to show any comparison that this dinner had the same significance as the US state dinner. Trudeau's main mission was for the social dinner. Bush was there on a working visit and got fed.

My point was, your formula doesn't always hold true.

Formula? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Now its a formula? I made an observation that out of seven US state dinners, six of them showed partisan tendencies. There is no formula. I have shown a strong tendency....that does not make it absolute even though you think by showing an example of ONE dinner in Canada that this tendency for US presidents to invite Canadian PMs of the same side doesn't exist.

The funny thing is this isn't a slam agains Right or Left....its just the way it is. Its more of a slam to the media or anyone who presents Trudeau's dinner as some huge accomplishment which I guess is why you are fighting tooth and nail to show that my 6 out 7 argument isn't real some how. Well....keep up the good fight.

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...The funny thing is this isn't a slam agains Right or Left....its just the way it is. Its more of a slam to the media or anyone who presents Trudeau's dinner as some huge accomplishment which I guess is why you are fighting tooth and nail to show that my 6 out 7 argument isn't real some how. Well....keep up the good fight.

This is the greatest takeaway from all this...the dire wish for the perceived importance and relevance to Trudeau as an accomplishment. Most Americans will go on with their lives having no clue or care about Trudeau before or after a state dinner in D.C., just like many other international leaders who "get fed" all dressed up. Trudeau even told us so on 60 Minutes.

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My point is they didn't care about Harper when he was the leader of the opposition. Just like they didn't know about Trudeau when he was just the leader of the Liberals. Of course if you want to digress further we can talk about what else the Americans don't care about which has nothing to do with my point of partisan politics being at play with the US state dinners.

And that was shown to not always be true in your own list. It does seem to be mostly true though, yes.

You are for now....but just wait till the next election to see which horse you're backing then.

Like most Canadians, I'm not married to one party or ideology.

Great. So you have shown one time in Canada where they fed the President and entourage for their working trip.

An official dinner is a state dinner put on by someone who isn't a head of state. You're right though, it wasn't the same - it was bigger, with more people:

OTTAWA – To roaring applause, U.S. President George W. Bush and Prime Minister Paul Martin descended the escalator with their wives into the Great Hall of the Museum of Civilization for the official dinner capping off the first U.S. presidential visit to Ottawa since 1995.

The 740 distinguished attendees gave their hosts and guests of honour a standing ovation for what was the largest dinner hosted by Mr. Martin since becoming prime minister.

As the applause faded, the hall quickly filled with the national anthems, first of the United States, then of Canada, as two Canadian Mounties stood at attention on the stage.

As Mr. Martin took the stage first to welcome his guests, he was greeted by more raucous applause and by another standing ovation.

“Mr. President, it’s good to be back home,” he said to Mr. Bush, who was seated at the large circular head table between Sheila Martin and Supreme Court Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin.

http://www.aronheller.com/articles/its-good-to-be-in-canada-bush-says/

Edited by Charles Anthony
added quote format
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And that was shown to not always be true in your own list. It does seem to be mostly true though, yes.

Never intended for it to be absolute. Just showing the tendency

it was bigger, with more people:

I never pegged you for a quantity over quality type of guy. But since you want to go there, why was Trudeaus dinner one of the smallest of the dinners that Obama put on? They had about 180 people versus 350 for France and the UK. Even China and Japan got over 200 guests. Perhaps Trudeau wasn't that big of a deal after all?

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They had about 180 people versus 350 for France and the UK. Even China and Japan got over 200 guests. Perhaps Trudeau wasn't that big of a deal after all?

How many though compared to Myanmar? That's the real measure......maybe Trudeau & Harper should just flop it out so we'll just know once and for all.

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I never pegged you for a quantity over quality type of guy. But since you want to go there, why was Trudeaus dinner one of the smallest of the dinners that Obama put on? They had about 180 people versus 350 for France and the UK. Even China and Japan got over 200 guests. Perhaps Trudeau wasn't that big of a deal after all?

China and Japan are more important countries overall.
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Never intended for it to be absolute. Just showing the tendency

I never pegged you for a quantity over quality type of guy. But since you want to go there, why was Trudeaus dinner one of the smallest of the dinners that Obama put on? They had about 180 people versus 350 for France and the UK. Even China and Japan got over 200 guests. Perhaps Trudeau wasn't that big of a deal after all?

Interesting. Using that criteria, Obama has very little use for or respect for his family when they sit down for dinner. I understand there are only the four of them.

As to numbers having meaning at celebrations: When I was still working for a living, there were always Christmas and other general social functions to which everybody was invited. When there was a function for the "inner circle" where only those close to you are invited the numbers are very small. These were the functions that everyone wanted to get an invite.

Edited by Big Guy
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Interesting. Using that criteria, Obama has very little use for or respect for his family when they sit down for dinner. I understand there are only the four of them.

Big Guy...it was SmallC that said bigger parties were better. I was just using the recent Trudeau dinner was the smallest to show that his point needs to be considered if using that metric.

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Big Guy...it was SmallC that said bigger parties were better. I was just using the recent Trudeau dinner was the smallest to show that his point needs to be considered if using that metric.

You cannot see it but I am standing corrected.

You will have to take my word for it. :D

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Do these folks really have a "dinner"?

Do they ask for extra ketchup or for a fifth glass of wine? Can they get a "doggie bag" for their mutt at home? Do they order different desserts and share parts of them to get a taste of all of them? Do they pass gas or burp to show their enjoyment of the meal?

I suspect that they perform and then go home to eat.

PS I wonder if they count the cutlery before they allow the guests to leave.

Edited by Big Guy
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That is the whole problem. We make it out like we need their approval. Its a dinner....who cares. Its not like the dinner stopped politics from happening after the fact.

I agree....it's pathetic how much this dinner was elevated in importance as the bellwether for future CanAm relations. Big issues remain and there are widely differing interests that are not solved with a 'bro hug.

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I agree....it's pathetic how much this dinner was elevated in importance as the bellwether for future CanAm relations. Big issues remain and there are widely differing interests that are not solved with a 'bro hug.

And let's not forget the obvious. The guy throwing the dinner won't be in office in a matter of months.

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