Criticizing religion.

[Guest]

Yes the laws and the people who carry out the discussing acts.

Yeah, my question was about the views. You seem to agree wth me that those views are valid. Is it your contention that they should be kept to oneself for fear of inciting loathing, contemt and disgust?

Or was your comment about losers only concerned with those who would deliberately aim to incite those feelings against those who absolutely do not deserve it?

[CITIZEN_2015]

As for Argus, if those are proven facts rather than claims that such religion allows or encourages those acts (as many believers of that religion would deny part or all of that) then the facts may be stated with proof and without inciting people to attack or take action against people who may believe in that religion.

As for bcscaper, my comment was about those losers or psychos or self-failures or retards (in the sense of the way they think not mentally challenged) who attack people for the way they are born or the weaker and defenseless,

Edited March 6, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

As for Argus, if those are proven facts rather than claims that such religion allows or encourages those acts (as many believers of that religion would deny part or all of that) then the facts may be stated with proof and without inciting people to attack or take action against people who may believe in that religion.

As for bcscaper, my comment was about those losers or psychos or self-failures or retards (in the sense of the way they think not mentally challenged) who attack people for the way they are born or the weaker and defenseless,

I'm haviing difficulty with your sentence there. Going back to the OP, do you believe it's okay to criticize religion when criticism is warranted, or do you think it should be illegal as it might cause offence?

What do you mean by "born", "weaker" of "defenceless"?

[CITIZEN_2015]

Going back to the OP, do you believe it's okay to criticize religion when criticism is warranted, or do you think it should be illegal as it might cause offence?

What do you mean by "born", "weaker" of "defenceless"?

The important point in your post is WHEN CRITICISM IS WARRANTED. So it must be fact based with proof provided rather than claims or accusations that many believers in that religion may deny and will be offended. Also not to blame the religion for the actions of individuals who claim to represent that religion or be a believer (For example some clergy murdering for power or self proclaimed believers murder and rape in some parts of the world or some so called clergy in other parts molesting children in the past or present don't blame it on that particular religion).. Also even if fact based it must not incite hate or violence against the believers of such religion.

By saying "the way they are born" i was referring to gays that now it is a scientific fact that homosexuality is not a choice but a born thing and so is race and national origin and to lesser extend religion (because the latter can be abandon or changed later in life so in adulthood it becomes a choice). By weaker I was referring to women who are generally speaking physically weaker than men (though I believe generally again having bigger hearts and minds so it is balanced). By defenseless I was referring to children and sometimes women too. I believe any kind of violence or crimes against women and children needs special consideration (and so should hate crimes) and should receive special punishment. Yes I do believe in capital punishment for these special crimes if murder and rape is involved.

Edited March 6, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

The important point in your post is WHEN CRITICISM IS WARRANTED. So it must be fact based with proof provided rather than claims or accusations that many believers in that religion may deny and will be offended. Also not to blame the religion for the actions of individuals who claim to represent that religion or be a believer (For example some clergy murdering for power or self proclaimed believers murder and rape in some parts of the world or some so called clergy in other parts molesting children in the past or present don't blame it on that particular religion).. Also even if fact based it must not incite hate or violence against the believers of such religion.

Well, sure, but I bet we differ on when critism is warranted. My point, basically, is this: It should be illegal to deliberately incite someone to act in a detrimental way against someone else.

No other speech ought to be proscribed. Offense is not, and should not be an issue. I just don't care how offended people get.

Edited March 6, 2016 by bcsapper

[CITIZEN_2015]

Well, we may differ whether the incite was deliberate or not. Also non-fact based accusations and those bordering lies and rightfully offending believers should be illegal.

[WestCoastRunner]

Well, sure, but I bet we differ on when critism is warranted. My point, basically, is this: It should be illegal to deliberately incite someone to act in a detrimental way against someone else.

Do you believe the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo should have been charged with 'deliberately inciting a group to act in a detrimental way toward others'?

Same goes for Family Guy and South Park.

[Guest]

Well, we may differ whether the incite was deliberate or not. Also non-fact based accusations and those bordering lies and rightfully offending believers should be illegal.

Well, if it might be a deliberate attempt to incite violence I assume the principle of innocent until proven guilty would apply.

Also, (not being a lawyer) don't we have laws against slander and libel that would take care of lies?

[Guest]

Do you believe the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo should have been charged with 'deliberately inciting a group to act in a detrimental way toward others'?

Same goes for Family Guy and South Park.

Absolutely not, no.

[WestCoastRunner]

Absolutely not, no.

But don't you think the cartoonists knew that they 'could' have crossed the line by inciting violent action towards others.

[Guest]

But don't you think the cartoonists knew that they 'could' have crossed the line by inciting violent action towards others.

Sounds like blaming the victim. Should they curb their creative activity because some nutcase might get pissed off? No, absolutely not. Any reaction is the nutcases fault.

My earlier posts about incitement were with regard to the action of deliberately inciting violence against an identifiable group.

Why, do you think they take more care about what they draw?

Edited March 6, 2016 by bcsapper

[WestCoastRunner]

Sounds like blaming the victim. Should they curb their creative activity because some nutcase might get pissed off? No, absolutely not. Any reaction is the nutcases fault.

My earlier posts about incitement were with regard to the action of deliberately inciting violence against an identifiable group.

Why, do you think they take more care about what they draw?

No, I don't. I was playing the devil's advocate and I wanted more clarification regarding your statement. Those nutcases are an identifiable group.

[Guest]

No, I don't. I was playing the devil's advocate and I wanted more clarification regarding your statement. Those nutcases are an identifiable group.

Oh, I have no problem with inciting violence against the nutcases, identifiable or not. Drone the lot of 'em, I say.

[Argus]

Do you believe the cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo should have been charged with 'deliberately inciting a group to act in a detrimental way toward others'?

Same goes for Family Guy and South Park.

Mockery rarely incites hatred.

[DogOnPorch]

What would incite incite me enough to actually kill somebody? Nothing one could print...

Christianity, at least, has a built-in pressure valve re: its followers...ie turn the other cheek. When it's working...

[taxme]

Nor will it be in the future what it is to-day.

In the Canada I remember, white and black never dated much less get married. Being gay was to be shunned, ridiculed and often assaulted. Aboriginals were savage Indians who were killed by the cavalry which rode in at the last minute. Every good sized town had an Orangemen's Day parade to stick it to the Catholics. If you dared to not stand and sing to God Save the Queen you would bullied and possibly assaulted. When the odd immigrants would try to fit into our Canadian culture they were called "Dirty DP's" and told to go home to where they came from.

I see my Canada to-day. It is a melting pot of people from all parts of the world living in proximity and friendship while celebrating the uniqueness of their own culture and the shared Canadian culture which they all share. Aboriginals are respected in their heritage and culture. Gays and minorities have all the same rights and respect as do the old white Canadians.

I like my Canada of to-day better.

I don't understand as to why new immigrants coming to Canada want to hang on to their past way of life? You are Canadian now, and one should think and become Canadian. But yet they cannot seem to want too forget or leave their past world behind. They left their homeland and they should assimilate, and stop trying to carry on here in Canada like they did back home. There have been many instances of immigrants that have immigrated to Canada, got their citizenship, and took off back to their old country to work. I see many new immigrants opening up businesses, and posting non-English signs only all over Vancouver and it's suburbs. In Canada the language spoken is English. So this tells me that when I see these non-English signs mounted that they are not that thrilled with being Canadian nor appear to want to assimilate into Canadian culture. Are they here for economic reasons only. I am offended that these people would put up a sign in their own language, and not English. This is not what one would call assimilating.

But thanks to multiculturalism this is what Canada and host Canadians will be forced to get use too, and live with. How long will it be before another foreign language will one day become an official language? The possibilities are endless. My opinion.

[CITIZEN_2015]

What kind of expectation is that. You expect them just because they have come to Canada then they lose their identity as who they are and where they come from and lose their culture completely??? Like lose their traditions, celebrations, beliefs, may be even religion and language. Where in Canada immigration rules say all these?

[kimmy]

No institution, including religion, can be exempt from criticism (including mockery.)

Whether it be concerted efforts to conceal sex abuse within the Catholic church, or the treatment of women in Islam, or any number of other topics, there is a lot that needs to be challenged. If people stopped challenging ideas because they didn't want to hurt religious peoples' feelings, we'd still be in the middle ages.

-k

[taxme]

What kind of expectation is that. You expect them just because they have come to Canada then they lose their identity as who they are and where they come from and lose their culture completely??? Like lose their traditions, celebrations, beliefs, may be even religion and language. Where in Canada immigration rules say all these?

As far as I know, there are no rules for what you are asking me. But from my understanding, new immigrants are told that Canada is a multicultural country thus most likely giving them the impression that their culture and language and religion are equal to all others, and that they can become a so-called Canadian, and that there is no need to assimilate if they don't want or need too. You can carry on just like back home. Assimilation? Not.

I don't expect new immigrants to come to Canada and they put up signs in their own language. Canada speaks English.Put up English signs. I don't speak a foreign language. What does the sign say? What are they doing here? If a new immigrant cannot post a sign in English but instead prefers to use his/hers language instead this is not assimilating. That is trying to start up your own beliefs and culture onto the host countries culture. If they want to hang on to their culture than keep it at home. This is what our multicultural and immigration policy is doing to Canada. It is starting to turn Canada into gettoes.

There was a business in a mall in Delta, BC many years ago where the last Canadian owner of that business was told that the malls owners wanted them to leave, and would not renew their contract. Apparently, from what was told to them, the Canadian owner was told that they did not fit in with the new immigrant culture group that had taken over the mall. You call that assimilating?

There was a case in a Richmond, BC mall where a white couple were told by an Asian business owner to get out of their Asian mall, and go shop in an American mall. You call this assimilation?

My friend had an altercation with an Asian customer in an Asian T&T store in the Coquitlam Mall one day over something that I cannot recall right now. After the altercation, my friend was told to go shop in an American store. Is this what you call assimilating, telling white Canadians to get out of their malls or stores? What an insult and a slap in the face to a born Canadian in her own country.

Just a couple of instances where the host Canadians are basically being told to get lost, this is our country now. Stay out of our malls and stores.

Yup, multiculturalism, isn't it just wonderful? I expect them to respect, not insult host Canadians in their own country. I am offended by the lack of respect and lack of sensitivity towards the host Canadian people. Just my opinion.

Edited March 7, 2016 by taxme

[CITIZEN_2015]

I got news for you. Canada is indeed a multicultural country (unless you still live in the past, like 70 years ago) and there is no need to give them the impression because IT IS A FACT that their culture and language and religion are equal to all others and this is written in our Charter of rights and freedom that citizens regardless of race, religion, origin, language, orientation have equal rights.

As for the rest of your post:

You are picking a few cases you have HEARD and then much worse you try GENERALIZING it to ALL immigrants and then you conclude that all immigrants or most of them are refusing to assimilate or they insult Canadians. Whether you do it knowingly or unknowingly but You are indeed inciting dislike against all immigrants and promoting fear of all immigrants by picking and choosing cases. There are much more success cases. Like the restaurant that I had my dinner a few weeks ago was a foreign owned restaurant, And guess what I counted at least TWO Canadian born (you may call them white or Caucasian Canadians) who were employed there by this owner whom you may regard as foreigner. Not to mention many foreign born (some recent immigrant) professors I encountered who are involved in teaching our kids to make a life for themselves after graduation or many others who create jobs in Canada by investing or others who bring their skills and education and take care of our sick or help to build roads and bridges and I can go on forever..

Btw, immigrants do NOT owe you anything. If you feel (which I think you do) that because they have come here now they owe you something for life then you are wrong. And respect too is mutual. If you expect respect from them then BE respectful to them and you will receive respect. If you disrespect them or look down at them then you will RECEIVE in kind. Your own fault.

I say this because I was in (UK) and that region is fairly racist (this was a couple of decades ago). I decided to go to a foreign restaurant advised by my hotel manager. So I was having my dinner and I heard some altercation near where I was sitting. I heard the white big English guy (with shaved head) who have eaten as much as a horse (I saw a few empty plates on his table) but refusing to pay saying that those people are allowed to come into his country and now he is entitled to a free dinner because he is now unemployed because of them!!!!!!!. He was arguing that they owe him at least that much to give him a free dinner for one night. How ridiculous one can get. There is no limit to stupidity and arrogancy of extreme right.

Edited March 8, 2016 by CITIZEN_2015

[Guest]

I say this because I was in (UK) and that region is fairly racist (this was a couple of decades ago). I decided to go to a foreign restaurant advised by my hotel manager. So I was having my dinner and I heard some altercation near where I was sitting. I heard the white big English guy (with shaved head) who have eaten as much as a horse (I saw a few empty plates on his table) but refusing to pay saying that those people are allowed to come into his country and now he is entitled to a free dinner because he is now unemployed because of them!!!!!!!. He was arguing that they owe him at least that much to give him a free dinner for one night. How ridiculous one can get. There is no limit to stupidity and arrogancy of extreme right.

Oh my God, why didn't you say so??? It's obvious you are right, after a story like that.

Of course, I lived in the UK for many years, and I never met him! But still...

Edit> Sorry, I didn't mean to so sarcastic.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Charles Anthony

[CITIZEN_2015]

It is not a story but a factual event that I happened to witness myself with my own eyes and ears. And there are many hims in UK and Europe and even Canada. We don't wish our peaceful country t become like some European countries where young colored immigrants are randomly being picked upon or attacked by gang of skinheads (losers who blame their failure on easy to pick targets). Steps needs to be taken to prevent that. Be selective on immigrants allowed in this country and reduce the numbers. A country of 30 million should be admitting about 150,000 a year not twice that much. Give priority to adopted immigrants and skill and education and make adaptability a big factor in selection.

[dialamah]

As far as I know, there are no rules for what you are asking me. But from my understanding, new immigrants are told that Canada is a multicultural country thus most likely giving them the impression that their culture and language and religion are equal to all others, and that they can become a so-called Canadian, and that there is no need to assimilate if they don't want or need too. You can carry on just like back home. Assimilation? Not.

---SNIP---

Yup, multiculturalism, isn't it just wonderful? I expect them to respect, not insult host Canadians in their own country. I am offended by the lack of respect and lack of sensitivity towards the host Canadian people. Just my opinion.

I'd say that the people who put up non-English signs on their business are attempting to reach a specific market, and it doesn't include people who don't speak that language. Kinda like bars don't really want non-drinkers in their establishment, or clothing stores who don't really want customers who aren't teenagers. That's how a 'free market' works, isn't it? Getting your panties in a knot because you can't read a sign seems pretty petty, to me, given the number of stores nearby who do put out English signs. Even if those businesses had English signs, my bet is that you still wouldn't be happy because everything in the business would be directed toward those of whatever ethnicity that business was interested in serving. That would include the sales people who would be just as likely to ignore any customers outside their target area.

Also, many of these people who come to Canada have had to live with us telling them - subtly and not so subtly - to stay out of our neighborhoods, our communities, our places of business. Acceptance is a two-way street, you know. And, while Canada may be miles ahead of other countries in the 'acceptance' department, there are still a lot of people who barely tolerate or actively resent immigrants and their 'differences', whether it's language, customs or dress. The people who come here, as long as they follow the laws of the land, are entitled to do and live how they wish - just as you and I are. Beyond obeying our laws, they are not required to meet some arbitrary standard of 'Canadian' that you have decided is correct.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Charles Anthony
excessive quoting; [---SNIP---]

[Argus]

I got news for you. Canada is indeed a multicultural country (unless you still live in the past, like 70 years ago) and there is no need to give them the impression because IT IS A FACT that their culture and language and religion are equal to all others and this is written in our Charter of rights

No it is not. Have you ever actually read the Charter?

[Argus]

It is not a story but a factual event that I happened to witness myself with my own eyes and ears. And there are many hims in UK and Europe and even Canada. We don't wish our peaceful country t become like some European countries where young colored immigrants are randomly being picked upon or attacked by gang of skinheads

Canada keeps no such statistics, but as far as I'm aware from the ones I have seen over the years the vast majority of interracial violence in the US, UK and Europe, including sexual assaults, has the 'minority' person as the assailant, not the victim.