Liberal voter fraud?

[Derek 2.0]

Interesting allegation on the part of the Federal NDP:

A letter sent in late November to Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand outlines five complaints about the polling station. Ashton was elected MP in the riding, which was hotly contested by Liberal Rebecca Chartrand.

The NDP go on to say that:

The first complaint is that between 558 and 561 votes were counted at the polling station, roughly 300 more votes than voters identified on the electors list.

That seems a little odd....furthermore:

An NDP scrutineer overheard an an Elections Canada worker tell the local returning officer "be careful. The NDP is here watching," Hudson's letter states. At least one person reported to the Ashton campaign they were instructed to vote Liberal in the election.

But it should be no surprise that:

Ashton's campaign has yet to receive a response from Elections Canada, she said.

"Our complaint is pretty clear this is a question, not of lack of capacity or lack of awareness, it's a question of ethics," she said.

Of course not..........it's 20156!!!

If its found the Liberal party was partaking in dirty tricks during the election, do they have the social license to bring forth wholesale changes as to how we have voted since 1867?

[dialamah]

If there was any fraud going on, I hope it's investigated and people responsible are held accountable.

I will say that working as a scrutineer myself, some of the rules were not fully understood and for about half a day, till the confusion was sorted out, some people who should have been able to vote were sent away to get different identification. Also, the NDP candidate in one of the ridings showed up with goodies for voters, remaining outside the building the polls were in. Don't know how long they were there, but eventually the rules about that were explained and the candidate left the area.

The description in the news story sounds like similar kinds of mistakes, rather than deliberate fraud; even having more people voting than on the voting list might just be due to higher turnout of people who don't normally vote. Making mistakes is quite different from calls sending people to the wrong polling station.

But to repeat, it should be investigated and if there were a deliberate attempt to skew the vote, the people responsible should be held to account.

And the current government should definitely change the FPTP voting system, even if some overly partisan idiots were trying some funny business at this polling station. I think making the system more representative of Canadian's preferences would reduce the motive for trying to ensure victory for one particular party.

Edited January 5, 2016 by dialamah

[Derek 2.0]

And the current government should definitely change the FPTP voting system, even if some overly partisan idiots were trying some funny business at this polling station. I think making the system more representative of Canadian's preferences would reduce the motive for trying to ensure victory for one particular party.

Speculation, but what if the alleged fraud went further up in the party? Why not put any changes to the people by a referendum?

[dialamah]

Speculation, but what if the alleged fraud went further up in the party? Why not put any changes to the people by a referendum?

If there was fraud, it should be pursued as far up the party as it goes, of course.

I have no problem with a referendum about this. I understand he that holds power has decided not to do that although I don't know why. Just speculating here too, but given the lack of interest in and knowledge of voting methods among most people, it may just be that the logistics of educating the public and determining a consensus among several different options might not be feasible.

[Topaz]

Let's wait and see but I don't see how anyone can point a finger at the Liberal Party, maybe people who wanted the liberals to win, but if not done fairly, that's wrong and people may go to jail.

[Derek 2.0]

I have no problem with a referendum about this. I understand he that holds power has decided not to do that although I don't know why. Just speculating here too, but given the lack of interest in and knowledge of voting methods among most people, it may just be that the logistics of educating the public and determining a consensus among several different options might not be feasible.

I would assume with a referendum, the supporters of various types of systems would attempt to "educate" the public on the merits of their proposals....clearly an overall benefit for Canadians.

The Liberals have suggested they will have a "conversation" on the topic, but will refuse to hold a referendum....I feel a national referendum encompassing the various options is a must, doubly so if the Liberal Party is guilty of voter/election fraud. Of course, no movement should be undertaken until (if) Elections Canada conducts an investigation on this alleged malfeasance.

[dialamah]

I would assume with a referendum, the supporters of various types of systems would attempt to "educate" the public on the merits of their proposals....clearly an overall benefit for Canadians.

The Liberals have suggested they will have a "conversation" on the topic, but will refuse to hold a referendum....I feel a national referendum encompassing the various options is a must, doubly so if the Liberal Party is guilty of voter/election fraud.

Sure, and how many people will you educate? How many people are interested and knowledgeable enough to educate the rest of us? Well, who knows ... JT detractors are already convinced JT will change his mind/policies on a whim, so maybe a referendum will happen. At which point his detractors can accuse him of not keeping a promise. The old damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?

Of course, no movement should be undertaken until (if) Elections Canada conducts an investigation on this alleged malfeasance.

Why? Even if wrongdoing is proved in that riding, I doubt it's going to implicate the government in any way so why should the government not proceed with whatever is on it's platform? The robocalls certainly weren't considered serious enough to limit the Harper government in any way. I seem to recall Harper supporters poo-pooing the idea that Harper knew about it, condoned it or should be held the least bit responsible.

[Derek 2.0]

Sure, and how many people will you educate? How many people are interested and knowledgeable enough to educate the rest of us?

I don't feel its my role to explain to Canadians why we need to change our voting system.

Why? Even if wrongdoing is proved in that riding, I doubt it's going to implicate the government in any way so why should the government not proceed with whatever is on it's platform?

I clearly stated if it implicated the LPC further.....at such a point, I would think they would lose their social license to alter the voting system.

The robocalls certainly weren't considered serious enough to limit the Harper government in any way. I seem to recall Harper supporters poo-pooing the idea that Harper knew about it, condoned it or should be held the least bit responsible.

Harper never proposed to alter the way we have voted since Confederation.

[Derek 2.0]

Let's wait and see but I don't see how anyone can point a finger at the Liberal Party,

I think the NDP's Niki Ashton made her case quite clear as to why she feels this to be so.

[overthere]

The only certainty about this is that Ashton and the NDP will not be blaming Rack Nine. Not publicly.

Edited January 6, 2016 by overthere

[Smallc]

not put any changes to the people by a referendum?

Why do something unnecessary? It's not a requirement and we generally don't do referendums in Canada.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Smallc

[Smallc]

Speculation, but what if the alleged fraud went further up in the party?

I think Justin himself put the ballots in the box.

[Smallc]

Let's wait and see but I don't see how anyone can point a finger at the Liberal Party

That's funny, I don't remember you saying the same thing when the finger was pointing at the Conservatives.

[Smallc]

I would assume with a referendum, the supporters of various types of systems would attempt to "educate" the public on the merits of their proposals....clearly an overall benefit for Canadians.

Would it not be better for expert panels and public consultation to do the work? The uneducated masses have already had their say. The overwhelming majority of the vote went to parties in favour of electoral reform.

[Smallc]

I think the NDP's Niki Ashton made her case quite clear as to why she feels this to be so.

I'm sure she did. She's as partisan as you.

[Derek 2.0]

I'm sure she did. She's as partisan as you.

Since you're getting personal.........Didn't you support Trudeau and work for Elections Canada in Manitoba?

[Smallc]

Since you're getting personal.........Didn't you support Trudeau and work for Elections Canada in Manitoba?

That wasn't intended as a personal jab. You're a partisan Conservative. I don't fault you for that. She's a partisan New Democrat. This is part of being a partisan. Again, I don't have a problem with that. As for my role as a poll supervisor - I took it very seriously. Canada's democracy is important, no matter who I happen to support.

[ReeferMadness]

I would assume with a referendum, the supporters of various types of systems would attempt to "educate" the public on the merits of their proposals....clearly an overall benefit for Canadians.

You can assume what you like but based on living through the BC-STV referendums, I can comfortably predict what will actually happen:

1. There will be a lot of claims and counter-claims

2. The media will be manifestly unhelpful by printing opinions of unqualified individuals and generally spreading misinformation

3. The no side in particular will rely on voter ignorance and produce reams of misinformation

4. Voting system experts will be mostly ignored

5. Most people will not take the time to educate themselves but lots of people who haven't a clue about voting systems will turn up and vote anyway

The result will be people voting on something they don't understand. Is the government holding a referendum to choose the design for the Windsor bridge? No? It's because most people aren't qualified to make the choice. Yet, people seem to assume that it's a good idea to ask people who lack the interest to do a bit of reading to weigh in on the voting system.

[Derek 2.0]

The result will be people voting on something they don't understand. Is the government holding a referendum to choose the design for the Windsor bridge? No? It's because most people aren't qualified to make the choice. Yet, people seem to assume that it's a good idea to ask people who lack the interest to do a bit of reading to weigh in on the voting system.

I see, so why have elections at all then? I mean the majority of Canadians clearly don't understand the complex issues encompassing the running of a first world nation.....why trouble them with it?

[ReeferMadness]

Interesting allegation on the part of the Federal NDP:

The NDP go on to say that:

That seems a little odd....furthermore:

But it should be no surprise that:

Of course not..........it's 20156!!!

If its found the Liberal party was partaking in dirty tricks during the election, do they have the social license to bring forth wholesale changes as to how we have voted since 1867?

wow, that's, uh, really good detective work.

wake me when someone has investigated.

[Smallc]

I see, so why have elections at all then? I mean the majority of Canadians clearly don't understand the complex issues encompassing the running of a first world nation.....why trouble them with it?

I've often wondered that myself. The reality is though, we have elections to ensure a peaceful transition. Other than that, leave the governing the people who know about it.

[ReeferMadness]

I see, so why have elections at all then? I mean the majority of Canadians clearly don't understand the complex issues encompassing the running of a first world nation.....why trouble them with it?

A lot of people self-select and don't turn up on voting day - that's one of the reasons I don't believe in mandatory voting. In reality, people mostly vote based on values - I doubt that half the people who actually vote (which are probably the most knowledgeable ones) couldn't pass a test on the platform of their preferred party.

There are tons of of issues that are of greater import and that are much harder to reverse than voting reform (trade deals come to mind). Why aren't you calling for a referendum on TPP if you're such a big believer in direct democracy. I didn't see you calling for a referendum when Harper rammed through the so-called "Fair Elections Act".

The reality is that the Liberals campaigned on voting system reform, most of the parties (representing almost 70% of the voters) are on board, and they have the mandate to do it.

[Derek 2.0]

wake me when someone has investigated.

I'm sure a great many people will be awaken if the allegations are proven true.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Derek 2.0

[Derek 2.0]

The reality is that the Liberals campaigned on voting system reform, most of the parties (representing almost 70% of the voters) are on board, and they have the mandate to do it.

Wait a minute.......I thought you just said most don't understand "voting system reform". Based on pass votes in Ontario and BC, it would seem most in those Provinces don't favor "voting system reform"......or as you suggested, they were easily hoodwinked.

[ReeferMadness]

I'm sure a great many people will be awaken if the allegations are proven true.

Even if those allegations were proven true, it's not even spit in the bucket next to the fraud perpetrated by your heroes. smh