Trudeau's new taxes

[Michael Hardner]

Sigh. Why does the left keep on harping about a senate scandal which cost the taxpayers nothing,

The Liberal sponsorship scandal involved taxpayer money going to the Liberal party itself, and cost Canada perhaps $18M including the investigation.

[angrypenguin]

The Liberal sponsorship scandal involved taxpayer money going to the Liberal party itself, and cost Canada perhaps $18M including the investigation.

That was my point...

[Big Guy]

The Liberal sponsorship scandal involved taxpayer money going to the Liberal party itself, and cost Canada perhaps $18M including the investigation.

It cost Canada more than that. It placed Harper into government for 9 years.

The Liberals were not defeated on policy or philosophy, they were defeated because there was a perception that the party condoned and allowed illegal behaviour.

[drummindiver]

The Liberal sponsorship scandal involved taxpayer money going to the Liberal party itself, and cost Canada perhaps $18M including the investigation.

$18 million?

The initial amount was almost $50 million. Add the investigation and commission report, some estimates have it at almost $100 million.

That's more millions than thousands in the Duffy "scandal".

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/sponsorship-scandal-continues-cost-canadian-taxpayers-millions-dollars-190531076.html

Why forget Martin's shipping line getting $161,000,000 in government contracts, much when he was finance minister, while only claiming $137,000.

You know, easy to forget about $160,630,000.

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/background/martin_paul/businessinterests.html

Provincially, the Liberals have multiple billion dollar boondoggles, but that's for another thread.

Federal Liberals have also gotten into the action.

Th'e billion-dollar boondoggle: Human Resources Development Minister Jane Stewart was in the hot seat in 2000 when an internal audit found that Jean Chrétien's Liberal government had failed to track employment program grants worth $1 billion to make sure the money was spent properly and the promised jobs were created. At one time, the RCMP had launched 12 separate investigations into HRDC files as a result of the audit; three of them related to grants awarded in the prime minister's riding of Saint-Maurice. Stewart faced grilling for months in the House of Commons, but managed to hold on to her job. She decided not to run again in the 2004 federal election, however.

But, hey, you know, Duffy repaid $90,000 of money he may or may not even of had to repay.

And of course, Liberals don't ever mention Shawinigate.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/the-shawinigate-affair-a-timeline

So please, despite all the hysterical hyperbole, the Liberals are the political scandal champs.

[Michael Hardner]

$18 million?

The initial amount was almost $50 million. Add the investigation and commission report, some estimates have it at almost $100 million.

That's more millions than thousands in the Duffy "scandal".

Keeping it to the point I made... and not to drift the thread more than we have your own link has the same numbers I quoted from wiki:

" In the end, the Commission concluded that $2 million was awarded in contracts without a proper bidding system, $250,000 was added to one contract price for no additional work, and $1.5 million was awarded for work that was never done, of which $1.14 million was repaid. The Commission found that a number of rules in the Financial Administration Act were broken. The overall operating cost of the Commission was $14 million.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_scandal

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Michael Hardner]

That was my point...

Yes, I was reinforcing your point with the numbers to make it stronger.

[drummindiver]

Keeping it to the point I made... and not to drift the thread more than we have your own link has the same numbers I quoted from wiki:

" In the end, the Commission concluded that $2 million was awarded in contracts without a proper bidding system, $250,000 was added to one contract price for no additional work, and $1.5 million was awarded for work that was never done, of which $1.14 million was repaid. The Commission found that a number of rules in the Financial Administration Act were broken. The overall operating cost of the Commission was $14 million.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_scandal

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The amount that was initially investigated missing was $49 million.

"Whatever happened to the federal Liberal sponsorship scandal?

A story in Quebec's La Presse notes Ottawa is still working at recovering the $49 million found to have been misappropriated in the mid 1990s."

Then lawyers.

"Gomery told La Presse he's not surprised by the ballooning legal costs during the current legal wranglings."

In the link you posted, it also clearly state almost $100 million dollars is awarded to Liberal friendly advertising firms for no work.

Also,

"May 8 — Auditor General Sheila Fraser issues a report accusing Public Works bureaucrats of having broken "just about every rule in the book" in awarding contracts worth $1.6 million to the Groupaction ad firm.[8] Fraser promises a follow-up report on the sponsorship program due in early 2004."

"February 13 — The National Post newspaper publishes a 2002 letter leaked to it by an unidentified third party, between the Liberal Party's then National Policy Chairman and Paul Martin, urging Martin to stop partisan financial abuses in the Sponsorship Program, thereby casting doubt on Martin's defence of personal ignorance'

This, added to the agreed upon amount of $18 million for the inquiry and legal wranglings.

Several Liberals did do federal jail time for fraud and other crimes, as listed in your link.

[drummindiver]

Keeping it to the point I made... and not to drift the thread more than we have your own link has the same numbers I quoted from wiki:

" In the end, the Commission concluded that $2 million was awarded in contracts without a proper bidding system, $250,000 was added to one contract price for no additional work, and $1.5 million was awarded for work that was never done, of which $1.14 million was repaid. The Commission found that a number of rules in the Financial Administration Act were broken. The overall operating cost of the Commission was $14 million.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_scandal

Correct me if I'm wrong.

So, that is correct in saying that is what the inquiry found.

Lets not gloss over what actually happened. See my previous post.

[Michael Hardner]

The amount that was initially investigated missing was $49 million.

Ok, it seems then that the amount is under dispute but that it at least $20M...

[Michael Hardner]

So, that is correct in saying that is what the inquiry found.

Lets not gloss over what actually happened. See my previous post.

I absolutely concur that the number is likely higher. Very hard to find money that is lost, and try to separate from money that was used properly.

[hitops]

Trudeau has only been there a week. The Liberal scandals of the past were straight up unequivocal theft of many millions of taxpayer dollars to help themselves and their friends. But Trudeau? Hard to say we can blame him for previous Liberal misdeeds.

Edited October 27, 2015 by hitops

[drummindiver]

Trudeau has only been there a week. The Liberal scandals of the past were straight up unequivocal theft of many millions of taxpayer dollars to help themselves and their friends. But Trudeau? Hard to say we can blame him for previous Liberal misdeeds.

Absolutely agreed. Got sidetracked due to other comments.

But hysterical hyperbole stating it cost us 9 years of the Conservative government. and illegal activity?

Again, the Liberals under Chretien/Martin have spawned more jail time than any other government in Canadian history.

So, big guy, your claim the Conservatives lost due to a perception they were criminal is just that, opposed to the reality the Liberals clearly were.

[hitops]

Absolutely agreed. Got sidetracked due to other comments.

But hysterical hyperbole stating it cost us 9 years of the Conservative government. and illegal activity?

Again, the Liberals under Chretien/Martin have spawned more jail time than any other government in Canadian history.

So, big guy, your claim the Conservatives lost due to a perception they were criminal is just that, opposed to the reality the Liberals clearly were.

Quite right, the CPC was a largely a perception issue with things like Duffy not even cracking $100K, which was paid back, and issues like the Bev Oda $10 orange juice, etc. The Liberals were outright thieves in the most literal sense with tens or perhaps hundreds of millions of our money.

I'm not going to be irrational and blame the PM elect for that, though. He is a wiener, but deserves a chance and should not pay for past party mistakes.

Edited October 27, 2015 by hitops

[dre]

Absolutely agreed. Got sidetracked due to other comments.

But hysterical hyperbole stating it cost us 9 years of the Conservative government. and illegal activity?

Again, the Liberals under Chretien/Martin have spawned more jail time than any other government in Canadian history.

So, big guy, your claim the Conservatives lost due to a perception they were criminal is just that, opposed to the reality the Liberals clearly were.

The conservatives did not lose because of scandals. They lost because most people in Canada dont like their ideas and policies, and dont like the way they governed. And they only ever won in the first place because the liberal party commited suicide, and we have a very unrepresentitive electoral system.

Unless the Liberals manage to implode in epic fassion again, the CPC will be out in the wilderness for quite some time. Most likely either 12 or 16 years... Maybe longer if they fix the electoral system.

[cybercoma]

Keeping it to the point I made... and not to drift the thread more than we have your own link has the same numbers I quoted from wiki:

" In the end, the Commission concluded that $2 million was awarded in contracts without a proper bidding system, $250,000 was added to one contract price for no additional work, and $1.5 million was awarded for work that was never done, of which $1.14 million was repaid. The Commission found that a number of rules in the Financial Administration Act were broken. The overall operating cost of the Commission was $14 million.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponsorship_scandal

Correct me if I'm wrong.

In other words, the amount of fraudulent spending was $3.75 million but Conservatives like to inflate that by citing legal costs plus the overall cost of the commission plus the overall amount of money spent on sponsorship. So we get numbers like $49 million or $20 million or whatever. At the end of the legal proceedings, the amount determined to be fraudulently spent was less than $4 million. Even so, that's $3.75 million too much and they were rightfully punished for it by being denied government for 10 years.

[Michael Hardner]

Even so, that's $3.75 million too much and ...

...$3.75 million more than the Duffy scandal.

[cybercoma]

...$3.75 million more than the Duffy scandal.

And? Are you suggesting that excuses bribing a senator, manipulating a third party audit, and lying to investigators?

[Michael Hardner]

And? Are you suggesting that excuses bribing a senator, manipulating a third party audit, and lying to investigators?

No. Are you suggesting that these are equal to the Duffy scandal ?

[GostHacked]

No. Are you suggesting that these are equal to the Duffy scandal ?

How much was spent just to try and recover 90 Gs? And how much money was spent investigating something like Adscam? Taxpayers get screwed twice! Once from the cost of the scandal, and another time for the cost of the court trials.

[cybercoma]

No. Are you suggesting that these are equal to the Duffy scandal ?

You brought up Duffy, so you appear to be equating them.

[Big Guy]

Absolutely agreed. Got sidetracked due to other comments.

But hysterical hyperbole stating it cost us 9 years of the Conservative government. and illegal activity?

Again, the Liberals under Chretien/Martin have spawned more jail time than any other government in Canadian history.

So, big guy, your claim the Conservatives lost due to a perception they were criminal is just that, opposed to the reality the Liberals clearly were.

I believe that I stated that it was the Liberals who lost the last election (before this one) because of the perception of illegal dealings and not because of policy.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Big Guy

[Topaz]

In today world, if u are single and have a good job, then u are very lucky if not in debt, because, many young people are with student loans and that may stop them from ever owning a house in the future. Once married, it really hard to stay out of debt unless u r making big bucks and are very cautious with money. Always remember, do I WANT it or do I NEED it.

[drummindiver]

I believe that I stated that it was the Liberals who lost the last election (before this one) because of the perception of illegal dealings and not because of policy.

My apologies, indeed you did.

Allow me to state then, that it was fact, not perception that the Liberals lost due to nefariousness and illegal dealings.

[Michael Hardner]

You brought up Duffy, so you appear to be equating them.

No, the Liberal scandal was bigger.

[dre]

...$3.75 million more than the Duffy scandal.

So what?