DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 Interesting how you are blaming the Jewish terrorist groups' terrorism and the killing of thousands of people on the Palestinians. Kind of like how Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have blamed their terrorist actions on Israel's occupation. Once again you are getting carried away with irresponsible comments. You need to back up your claim that the Mufti has "perhaps a million deaths at his hands". Irgun was created as a result of the Grand Mufti's pogroms. Cause ---> Effect. The Grand Mufti was deeply involved in the Final Solution in the Balkans and Axis Minor nations. It was the Mufti that successfully lobbied for Jews in that part of Europe to be sent to Poland rather than escaping to Allied territory. That cost perhaps 1,000,000 Jews and Roma. Maybe less...maybe more. You counting? What's your count of how many he has killed? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
marcus Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Irgun was created as a result of the Grand Mufti's pogroms. Cause ---> Effect. Hamas and other militant/terrorist groups were created as a result of the decades long occupation, land theft, and endless human rights violations by Israel. Cause ---> Effect. How do you feel about these Jewish terrorist groups being the pioneers of Middle East terrorist groups? The Grand Mufti was deeply involved in the Final Solution...1,000,000 Jews Lots of typing again. You need to back this up to counter historian after historian, including Jewish Israeli Holocaust Historians, who have come out against this narrative that Bibi has already tried to sell to us. Edited November 5, 2015 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 Hamas and other militant/terrorist groups were created as a result of the decades long occupation, land theft, and endless human rights violations by Israel. Cause ---> Effect. How do you feel about these Jewish terrorist groups being the pioneers of Middle East terrorist groups? Lots of typing again. You need to back this up to counter historian after historian, including Jewish Israeli Holocaust Historians, who have come out against this narrative that Bibi has already tried to sell to us. The Mufti was the originator of terror attacks in the Mandate. If you're not aware of the Mufti's activities during WW2, no amount of 'convincing' on my part will change your already made-up mind. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 No one denies he existed, it's the evil that's being attributed to him that's at issue, especially when it's being attributed to him this late in the day. It's a little suspect to say the least. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
marcus Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Posted November 5, 2015 The Mufti was the originator of terror attacks in the Mandate. If you're not aware of the Mufti's activities during WW2, no amount of 'convincing' on my part will change your already made-up mind. Enough commentary. Back. It. Up. Provide your counter argument to Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholars with citations. Everything you are sharing with us here: 1) Mufti being the originator of terror attacks. 2) Mufti being the reason for the rise of Jewish Terrorism. 3) Mufti having 1,000,000 deaths at his hands Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 You want me to back-up the Final Solution with proof? What sort of proof are you looking for that I'm going to provide to you? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
eyeball Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 People should take a cue from Netanyahu and give it up. It only seemed to take him about ten minutes or so to learn the adage better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. People around here are still banging their heads against this wall going on ten years or more. Unbelievable. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 You want me to back-up the Final Solution with proof? What sort of proof are you looking for that I'm going to provide to you? I don't have a clue and if you do Netanyahu is probably desperate to talk to you. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) I don't have a clue and if you do Netanyahu is probably desperate to talk to you. Who knows? Maybe he does. What I do know is that the activities of the Mufti are not a secret. If people really want to know what the Grand Mufti did during the Final Solution, a Google search will turn over the rocks. However, when somebody refuses to do such a search even though such a connection is known tells me that they're not really that into turning over those stones. I understand this. The Palestinian Cause is an investment and it must be managed properly. Nazis in the works are unhelpful... Edited November 5, 2015 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
marcus Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Posted November 5, 2015 You want me to back-up the Final Solution with proof? What sort of proof are you looking for that I'm going to provide to you? What are you talking about? Is that really what you took away from the post you are quoting and replying to? If you do not back them up with citation, then there is no credibility behind your commentary: Provide your counter argument to Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholars with citations. Everything you are sharing with us here: 1) Mufti being the originator of terror attacks. 2) Mufti being the reason for the rise of Jewish Terrorism. 3) Mufti having 1,000,000 deaths at his hands Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
eyeball Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Who knows? Maybe he does. Not according to Holocaust scholars. If people really want to know what the Grand Mufti did during the Final Solution, a Google search will turn over the rocks. However, when somebody refuses to do such a search even though such a connection is known tells me that they're not really that into turning over those stones. Which is as much to say that Holocaust scholars are deniers at heart. I understand this. The Palestinian Cause is an investment and it must be managed properly. Nazis in the works are unhelpful... Netanyahu's got nothing too. Edited November 5, 2015 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 What are you talking about? Is that really what you took away from the post you are quoting and replying to? If you do not back them up with citation, then there is no credibility behind your commentary: Provide your counter argument to Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholars with citations. Everything you are sharing with us here: 1) Mufti being the originator of terror attacks. 2) Mufti being the reason for the rise of Jewish Terrorism. 3) Mufti having 1,000,000 deaths at his hands Argument from authority. What is a Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholar? Why do you value their opinion? Give examples of why you value their opinions. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 Argument from authority. What is a Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholar? Why do you value their opinion? Give examples of why you value their opinions. That is assuming their opinions are valued. Quote
eyeball Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 Argument from authority. What is a Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholar? Why do you value their opinion? Give examples of why you value their opinions. They caused Netanyahu to shut up. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 They caused Netanyahu to shut up. Yet, Netanyahu was correct. The Final Solution was decided upon in January 1942. The Mufti filed his complaint in November of 1941. Up until the Wannsee Conference, the Holocaust was a disjointed affair. The spectrum ran from Einsatzgruppen to mass deportations. The Mufti and Eichmann were friends...actual buddies...before WW2 started. Am I to believe that they weren't good friends during the war? That being said...what is a Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholar and why is his or her opinion worth more than a "regular" historian's? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
marcus Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Posted November 5, 2015 Argument from authority. What is a Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholar? Why do you value their opinion? Give examples of why you value their opinions. You are not authority. You still have not backed up any of your commentary and opinion. See below for who the authority is: For example Yad Vashem, is Israel's official memorial to the victims of the Holocaust. It is the World Center for Holocaust Research, Documentation, Education and Commemoration. Tell me why you don't value their opinion. This is how backing up your claims is done: Professor Dan Michman, a world-renowned expert who is the head of the Institute of Holocaust Research at Bar-Ilan University and Head of the International Institute for Holocaust Research at Yad Vashem said Hitler did indeed meet the mufti – but this only occurred after the Final Solution began. More? Okay: Yad Vashem's chief historian, Professor Dina Porat, told Ynet that Netanyahu's statements were factually incorrect. "You cannot say that it was the mufti who gave Hitler the idea to kill or burn Jews," she said. "It's not true. Their meeting occurred after a series of events that point to this." It's true that the Mufti met Hitler. It was once, but their 95-minute conversation took place on 28 November 1941. Husseini used it to try to secure the Führer’s support for Arab independence. By then, Hitler’s plans to exterminate the Jews were already well under way. More? Try reading the following: Philip Mattar explains in his book The Mufti of Jerusalem. The War Against the Jews, Lucy Davidowicz writes about the preparations among Hitler’s top lieutenants to carry out the genocide: “Sometime during that eventful summer of 1941, perhaps even as early as May, Himmler summoned Höss to Berlin and, in privacy, told him ‘that the Führer had given the order for a Final Solution of the Jewish Question,’ and that ‘we, the SS, must carry out the order.’” - This was before the Mufti had his 95 minute conversation with Hitler. So why are Revisionist Zionists trying so hard to link the significance of Mufti's relationship with the Nazis? Here is a good read: As Columbia University professor Joseph Massad notes in his 2006 book The Persistence of the Palestinian Question, Haj Amin al-Husseini has long been a favorite theme of Zionist and Israeli propaganda. Husseini “provided the Israelis with their best propaganda linking the Palestinians with the Nazis and European anti-Semitism,” Massad observes. The Mufti fled British persecution and went to Germany during the war years. Massad writes that al-Husseini “attempted to obtain promises from the Germans that they would not support the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine. Documents that the Jewish Agency produced in 1946 purporting to show that the Mufti had a role in the extermination of Jews did no such thing; the only thing these unsigned letters by the Mufti showed was his opposition to Nazi Germany’s and Romania’s allowing Jews to emigrate to Palestine.” Yet, he adds, “the Mufti continues to be represented by Israeli propagandists as having participated in the extermination of European Jews.” Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
eyeball Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 what is a Jewish Israeli Holocaust scholar and why is his or her opinion worth more than a "regular" historian's? Their value stems from the way scholars as a group of professional and expert historians check their individual opinions and conclusions about the historical record they have access too against one another until they come to a learned consensus about what actually happened. You see a similar process being used by other learned experts and professional scholars in most fields of study and these in turn all follow similar paths to the way their schools of study make conclusions about the accuracy of the things they discuss and set out to determine and eventually teach and pass on. This self-correcting process be it scientific or evidentiary leaves plenty of room for amateur participation while weeding out the outliers and crackpots who remain free to present their evidence and theories to the world at large. This process is the farthest thing from fallaciousness and arguing otherwise only underscores an amateurish approach to learning or presenting your findings. Most laypeople in their turn use the same basic process to check and balance and fine tune their individual filters to separate out the BS from the Shinola. Most outliers and crackpots seem to be content to appeal to rhetorically logical sounding fallacies as the soapbox from which they appeal to their very own authority. It doesn't take much of a filter to see through that. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Rue Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 Marcus you continue to debate issues Netanyahu never raised. Quote
Rue Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 No historic scholar shut Netanyahu up. They asked for a clarification and received it. Nothing Netanyahu said any of the scholars debated. They were upset about the lack of clarity in what he said that led to a different interpretation by some. Once it was clarified they did not shut him up or even disagree with him. Those who keep kicking this dead thread to try create an issue between Netanyahu and alleged historic scholars are misrepresenting and fabricating what was said and continue to do so. Quote
eyeball Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 Meanwhile from Germany... "We are responsible for the Holocaust" Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 Meanwhile from Germany... "We are responsible for the Holocaust" Eichmann and Heydrich were indeed German. I view them as the kingpins of the Final Solution. More than Himmler and Hitler who wouldn't get their hands dirty. Blood made Himmler ill, after all. But behind Heydrich and Eichmann were other figures key to getting the job done. The Mufti was one such figure. His activities during the war are not a secret. Raising SS divisions...running Hitler's Middle East Bureau...badgering Axis Minor countries re: their Jewish policies....etc, etc. But, what I'm seeing is that since the Mufti wasn't Heydrich...or Eichmann...he is somehow off-the-hook for his activities during the Holocaust. Odd that. Old camp guards barely able to stand are being tried in Germany. Plus, I am to believe the cause he started was somehow not tainted by all this murder and mayhem while an SS man (that managed to escape and start the Arab-Israeli conflict). But, as I mentioned...the Palestinian Cause seems to be a real investment for the true believer. I don't necessarily count you as one of those...I have some hope. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
marcus Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) issues Netanyahu never raised. Except that he did. He was very clear about what he said. Very clear. Then, after the uproar about his comments, he tried to massage his comments into something else. Typical lying Zionist - This is the clear comment: Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews. And Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Hitler and said, “If you expel them, they’ll all come here.” “So what should I do with them?” he asked. He said, “Burn them.” The only way Bibi could have cleared things up is if he said: "Okay. I totally lied." Edited November 5, 2015 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
DogOnPorch Posted November 5, 2015 Report Posted November 5, 2015 The minutes of the meeting are available. http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/hitler.mufti.htm Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
marcus Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) The minutes of the meeting are available. http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Total/hitler.mufti.htm Did I type too much in the previous post? Why don't you read it over, so we can reduce the repetition. There is no question that the Mufti had a 95 minute meeting with Hitler. It's just that he had the meeting AFTER the final solution already started (as it has been documented over and over) AND there is no documentation showing that Hitler and Mufti had a conversation where Mufti was pushing Hitler to start the final solution, as Bibi alleged took place. Edited November 5, 2015 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
DogOnPorch Posted November 6, 2015 Report Posted November 6, 2015 Did I type too much in the previous post? Why don't you read it over, so we can reduce the repetition. There is no question that the Mufti had a 95 minute meeting with Hitler. It's just that he had the meeting AFTER the final solution already started (as it has been documented over and over) AND there is no documentation showing that Hitler and Mufti had a conversation where Mufti was pushing Hitler to start the final solution, as Bibi alleged took place. The Wannsee Conference was in January 1942 (the Final Solution decided upon). Hitler and the Mufti met in November 1941. I don't trust your Israeli-Jewish scholars, already. The minutes for the Wannsee Conference are available, as well. A few movies have been made of this meeting. Before January 1942, the Holocaust was a patchwork of extremes...ranging from deportation to an encounter with the Einsatzgruppen if you were an unlucky Russian/Ukrainian Jew. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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