Manifesto backed by prominent NDPers calls for overhaul of economy

[Evening Star]

The peer-reviewed literature says the planet is warming, part of that warming is due to humans and there is a non-zero risk of negative effects in the future.

This is at least more than what Springer is acknowledging. It seemed a little unfair to cite a physicist who is a sceptic, and then when someone challenges the appeal to authority on the basis of area of expertise, to then question the expertise of well-known activists whom no one on this thread had at that point cited as an expert, while making no reference to the actual literature in the field.

The literature has nothing useful to say about what society should do in response to the identified risks because answering such questions requires an understanding of economics and energy production engineering. The relevant experts in economics are very divided on the topic and a large number of experts in energy production engineering believe that CO2 emissions cannot be meaningfully reduced with the currently available technology (assuming nuclear is not an option).

Yes, I'm not surprised that climate scientists would refrain from making political recommendations. Economics is a notoriously soft 'science' and I would have to take any economic model with a grain of salt if it were making projections about something like this, where there are many variables and few precedents.

[cybercoma]

All of this manifesto nonsense reminds me of the New Brunswick Waffle Movement.

In 1970, several members of the New Brunswick New Democratic Party (NDP) formed a New Left/Trotskyist group within the party known as the New Brunswick Waffle. The NB Waffle gained significant strength within the NB NDP, eventually securing a victory for its radical manifesto, "For a Socialist New Brunswick," at a party convention in September 1971. A dispute, however, erupted over the legality of this victory, which led to a two-month split within the party that required intervention on the part of the federal NDP. By the end of 1971 the NB Waffle had itself fractured and collapsed.[

Link to article: https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/Acadiensis/article/view/12471

You know what happens when the NDP becomes socialist? The federal arm of the party comes in and shuts them down. This isn't even remotely new. All of this fear mongering about the "socialist" NDP and "manifestos" is nonsense that has never been a reality.

Edited September 17, 2015 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

Hell, even back in the 30s the CCF clashed with the socialist/communist parties and membership.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Leap Manifesto....for Canada...by Canadians....with main supporting American footnotes and resources.

I love it !!

http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/JDEnPolicyPt1.pdf

Edited September 17, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[ReeferMadness]

Yes. Most of the signatories are entertainers or activists.

I don't mean the glossy marketing speak. I mean the supporting material.

A scholarly consensus on science-based, viable solutions for greenhouse gas reduction. Produced by Sustainable Canada Dialogues, an initiative under the UNESCO–McGill Chair for Dialogues on Sustainability and the Trottier Institute for Science and Public Policy.

Sustainable Canada Dialogues has mobilized over 60 Canadian scholars from every province, representing climate change expertise in areas from engineering to sociology.

Naomi Klein, et al are just presenting material. They didn't make it up.

[Evening Star]

All of this manifesto nonsense reminds me of the New Brunswick Waffle Movement.

You know what happens when the NDP becomes socialist? The federal arm of the party comes in and shuts them down. This isn't even remotely new. All of this fear mongering about the "socialist" NDP and "manifestos" is nonsense that has never been a reality.

The Waffle was actually a movement within the NDP membership. The connection between this manifesto and the NDP is so tenuous that I don't see how intelligent people can seriously believe it will impact the NDP vote.

[Evening Star]

I don't mean the glossy marketing speak. I mean the supporting material.

Naomi Klein, et al are just presenting material. They didn't make it up.

But the glossy marketing speak IS the Leap Manifesto! The document you link is a UNESCO/SCD report, which the Manifesto authors cite as the source for one statistic in their manifesto. The report does look a lot more substantial than the manifesto, so I'll read it when I have a moment.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Evening Star

[ReeferMadness]

All of this manifesto nonsense reminds me of the New Brunswick Waffle Movement.

You know what happens when the NDP becomes socialist? The federal arm of the party comes in and shuts them down. This isn't even remotely new. All of this fear mongering about the "socialist" NDP and "manifestos" is nonsense that has never been a reality.

First, the manifesto has nothing to do with the NDP. They describe themselves as non-partisan and having supporters from different parties.

Second, if the NDP feels it is being outflanked on the left, they have nobody but themselves to blame. What exactly is the point of having 2 parties trying to occupy the same centre ground? Particularly, when they know that the broken voting system will just hand victory to the party that stands alone in the right?

[Evening Star]

Second, if the NDP feels it is being outflanked on the left, they have nobody but themselves to blame. What exactly is the point of having 2 parties trying to occupy the same centre ground? Particularly, when they know that the broken voting system will just hand victory to the party that stands alone in the right?

In the NDP's partial defence, they could have had no way of knowing what policy positions the Liberals would adopt until the election campaign began.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Evening Star

[ReeferMadness]

The Leap Manifesto....for Canada...by Canadians....with main supporting American footnotes and resources.

I love it !!

You hang around a Canadian discussion site finding gratification every time anything American is mentioned. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one around here who feels sorry for you.

[ReeferMadness]

In the NDP's partial defence, they could have had no way of knowing what policy positions the Liberals would adopt until the election campaign began.

I don't even begin to understand how any of the old guard could be happy with where the NDP has landed. They could have achieved more progressive policies if they were a third place party with a more progressive leader. If you have to abandon most of your principles to gain power, then what's the point?

[ReeferMadness]

The Waffle was actually a movement within the NDP membership. The connection between this manifesto and the NDP is so tenuous that I don't see how intelligent people can seriously believe it will impact the NDP vote.

The connection was manufactured by the media to drum up some interest in the story.

[bush_cheney2004]

You hang around a Canadian discussion site finding gratification every time anything American is mentioned. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one around here who feels sorry for you.

Agreed...it is delightful to tune into the "Murica Sucks !" channel each day only to find so many 'Murican references and discussion.

That the oh so NDP/Canadian "Leap Mainfesto" does so truly deserves a ROTFLMAO.

[Bryan]

Oh yeah. Great thing. Slash revenues. Then freeze departmental spending and have them return $8.9 billion of budgeted money back on top of that. Great leadership.

Amazing leadership. The best we've ever had. The best in the world right now.

[ReeferMadness]

Amazing leadership. The best we've ever had. The best in the world right now.

After watching a CPC candidate pee in a mug, I'd be careful about drinking the CPC kool-aid.

[TimG]

Lets say a group of Christian evangelicals published their 'vision' for transforming society to conform with their religious preferences (i.e. do exactly what Klein and her ilk have just did - the only difference is the details of the religion). Does anyone believe for a second that NDP supporters would not be howling about how it represents a Conservative 'hidden agenda'? NDP supporter can whine as much as they like about people saying the manifesto represents the NDP 'hidden agenda' but they are simply getting a taste of their own medicine.

Edited September 17, 2015 by TimG

[ReeferMadness]

Lets say a group of Christian evangelicals published their 'vision' for transforming society to conform with their religious preferences (i.e. do exacting what Klein and her ilk have just did). Does anyone believe for a second that NDP supporters would not be howling about how it represents a Conservative 'hidden agenda'? NDP supporter can whine as much as they like about people saying the manifesto represents the NDP 'hidden agenda' but they are simply getting a taste of their own medicine.

That would be kind of redundant. They already have a Christian evangelist as Prime Minister.

And when you equate Christian evangelism with a document that summarizes work produced by 60 scholars, you are clearly identifying yourself as anti-science. Which would hardly be news to anyone reading your ridiculous posts on climate change.

[TimG]

And when you equate Christian evangelism with a document that summarizes work produced by 60 scholars, you are clearly identifying yourself as anti-science.

Ah yes - the pathetic conceit of a leftist: anyone who says things that you like is a 'scholar'. Anyone who disagrees is a 'anti-science'.The only people who believe your BS are the fellow followers of your CAGW cult.

Here is a little test to illustrate why this manifesto is nothing but the equivalent of a papal encyclical: where is nuclear? You see anyone who cares about reality and believes that CO2 is a serious problem could not possibly ignore the most practical CO2 free power source available. Yet this manifesto makes no mention of it.

It is pretty clear who is anti-science and it is not me.

BTW: please tell what percentage of the document authors actually have expertise in economics or energy engineering? An acting career is hardly a credential worthy of respect.

Edited September 17, 2015 by TimG

[ironstone]

Many, if not most, of the signatories are entertainers. It seems like a real stretch to call Alanis Morrissette and Tegan and Sara prominent NDPers.

Most entertainers tend to do a lot of travelling over great distances.I assume most of these same entertainers fly on planes which consume fossil fuels.How about huge diesel tour buses and limos all the time?I see David Suzuki there too(owns four homes).

Do as we say,not as we do.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/16/naomi-kleins-tommunistmanifesto

[Argus]

Really, who can argue with the OP. It all makes good sense.

Anyone who has any good sense.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Here is a little test to illustrate why this manifesto is nothing but the equivalent of papal encyclical: where is nuclear? YOu see anyone who cares about reality and believes that CO2 is a serious problem could not possibly ignore the most practical CO2 free power source available. Yet this manifesto makes no mention of it.

Good point...no mention of N-U-C-L-E-A-R ?

[69cat]

NDP is dead set against it, had that NDP policy very clearly outlined in Saskatchewan when they were in power. Would have been good but ndp has never been about generating and growing an economy, simply pulling out what it can to survive. Now everyone is against it because Fukushima so not likely to get an appoval on that anytime soon. After all, you have to store the waste which seems to be an unsolvable issue because there is always some group opposed to it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Lots of nuclear power generation is currently under construction in several nations. They don't care about the NDP or their manifesto which ignores the nuclear power options already exercised in the real world.

[ReeferMadness]

Ah yes - the pathetic conceit of a leftist: anyone who says things that you like is a 'scholar'. Anyone who disagrees is a 'anti-science'.The only people who believe your BS are the fellow followers of your CAGW cult.

Here is a little test to illustrate why this manifesto is nothing but the equivalent of a papal encyclical: where is nuclear? You see anyone who cares about reality and believes that CO2 is a serious problem could not possibly ignore the most practical CO2 free power source available. Yet this manifesto makes no mention of it.

It is pretty clear who is anti-science and it is not me.

BTW: please tell what percentage of the document authors actually have expertise in economics or energy engineering? An acting career is hardly a credential worthy of respect.

You're hilarious. I've already posted a link (see above) to the document that supports the manifesto and it was authored, reviewed and critiqued by scholars across Canada.

Meanwhile, your hero Harper has eliminated the Office of the National Science Advisor and muzzled scientists; and his idea of a great Minister of Science and Technology is an insurance executive.

So, you tell me. Where is the scientific support for Harper's government?

[TimG]

You're hilarious. I've already posted a link (see above) to the document that supports the manifesto and it was authored, reviewed and critiqued by scholars across Canada

BS. There is absolutely no evidence of that on the manifesto website. The only people that comes close a scholar are folks from the Center for Policy Alternatives but they are really an ideologically driven propaganda outfit.

You also ignored the elephant in the room: a report that claims the need for action on CO2 but then completely ignores nuclear is nothing but a religious document for the Church of CAGW. That omission alone shows that any "scholars" involved simply don't have the expertise to make any authoritative statements on the topic.

Edited September 18, 2015 by TimG