White guy can't get published. Uses Chinese name instead.

[-1=e^ipi]

Interesting article. Let's discuss its implications.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/09/08/a-white-guy-named-michael-couldnt-get-his-poem-published-then-he-became-yi-fen-chou/

"Hudson, who is white, wrote in his bio for the anthology that he chose the Chinese-sounding nom de plume after “The Bees” was rejected by 40 different journals when submitted under his real name. He figured that the poem might have a better shot at publication if it was written by somebody else.

“If this indeed is one of the best American poems of 2015, it took quite a bit of effort to get it into print, but I’m nothing if not persistent,” reads his unabashed explanation.

Anecdotally, Hudson’s calculation was correct. The literary journal Prairie Schooner, one of nine places to receive a submission from “Yi-Fen Chou,” accepted “The Bees” and three other poems for its Fall 2014 issue. The poem was referred to Best American Poetry, where Alexie came across it, and wound up in the collection, where Brooklyn-based writer and snarky Tumblr poetry-commentator Jim Behrle found it and posted it to his site."

For those who think that discrimination against white males (in the context of job hiring, university applications, publications) is just limited to affirmative action, you are wrong.

[Peter F]

So white male poets with non-chines names simply cannot get published?

[Canada_First]

Just shows that white males are second class citizens.

[Black Dog]

Just shows that white males are second class citizens.

Does it? Really? Because poetry?

[Peter F]

Publishers, apparently, must publish everything submitted by white males.

[BC_chick]

Yet we had a thread a little while ago about what people would be if they could choose their gender and race and none of the white males would trade.

[cybercoma]

Meanwhile on university campuses across the country, there's scholarships directed towards men only to get them into the humanities, particularly english programs.

[The_Squid]

Meanwhile on university campuses across the country, there's scholarships directed towards men only to get them into the humanities, particularly english programs.

But that fact doesn't negate that the person judging the poetry explicitely stated that the poem was chosen, in part, because it was a Chinese name...

It's an interesting article that doesn't take one side or the other. I found the article balanced and thought provoking.

Women have been using nom de plumes for many years because they feel (probably rightly) that their work is considered more seriously if the publisher doesn't know that a woman is doing the writing (e.g. J.K. Rowling).

Is it "racist"? No... Is it a bias with this particular publication? Looks like it. I don't know that it's good or bad as poetry is so darn subjective. I don't get most of it... and everyone has there reasons for liking a particular piece.

I don't believe that the other 40 publications were biased against the guy because of his name, however. I think that's a stretch. Maybe it just wasn't that good... until it came upon the correct publisher/judge.

Edited September 14, 2015 by The_Squid

[Canada_First]

Would it be racist if it was a black person not getting published with a black sounding name but did get the same work published with a white sounding name?

[-1=e^ipi]

Philip Oreopoulos has been doing studies to look at resume name bias for years. Here is one:

http://oreopoulos.faculty.economics.utoronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Why-Do-Skilled-Immigrants-Struggle-in-the-Labor-Market.pdf

He often finds that foreign names are discriminated against when it comes to resume acceptance. Though there are some exceptions (such as Asian sounding names in engineering).

He also finds that males are discriminated against (if you look at the regression tables it is more significant than the foreign name bias).

A recent study has found that women have a 2:1 hiring advantage in STEM fields.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.abstract

So there is evidence that there is name bias when it comes to these things.

Heck, many posters on this site have admitted that they would have a hiring bias towards women (see the 'In defence of feminism' thread).

[Moonlight Graham]

I'm not surprised at all by this story. It puts stereotypes on both white people and Chinese people.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode called "The Chinese Woman":

Jerry talks to a woman, Donna Chang, on George's phone line after the wires get crossed and he gets a date with her, thinking she's Chinese because of her surname. Later, Jerry meets Donna, who is not Chinese, but actually shortened her last name Changstein to Chang while taking on Chinese stereotypes, such as displaying interest in acupuncture or on one occasion pronouncing a word with a Chinese accent.

Donna talks over the phone to George's mother, Estelle (who also thinks Donna Chang is Chinese), convincing her not to divorce (by citing Confucius). When George introduces Donna to his parents, Estelle realizes she is not Chinese and doesn't acknowledge her advice ("You're not Chinese! I thought I was getting advice from a Chinese woman!"), deciding to proceed with the divorce.

[Moonlight Graham]

Would it be racist if it was a black person not getting published with a black sounding name but did get the same work published with a white sounding name?

It's not racism if it's a white person that's being treated racist, c'mon man get with 21st century justice geez!

[Canada_First]

It's not racism if it's a white person that's being treated racist, c'mon man get with 21st century justice geez!

Lol. Haha...

[Peter F]

The list of things submitted to publishers but not published is as long as my arm - probably much longer. The idea of the OP is they are not published due to racism.

I would like to add that the publishing business is well aware of the concept of the nom-de-plume. I suggest that the publisher is well aware of the subject poets real name if only so's they can send the check.

[Big Guy]

I suggest that publishing firms survive on picking winners - presentations with merit that will sell. I would also suggest that if it was a decent piece or work worth publishing that the authors name could be Bin Laden or One Hunglo and would still be published.

[kimmy]

I'm not surprised at all by this story. It puts stereotypes on both white people and Chinese people.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode called "The Chinese Woman":

Haha! I was thinking the exact same thing!

Also, it reminds me of something that happened a few years back. Some online magazine, I forget who... had this edgy young woman writing articles for them... but then they found out that she wasn't 23, she was 36. They fired her. I guess her work didn't seem as fresh and edgy when they realized it wasn't being written by a kid.

-k

[cybercoma]

Haha! I was thinking the exact same thing!

Also, it reminds me of something that happened a few years back. Some online magazine, I forget who... had this edgy young woman writing articles for them... but then they found out that she wasn't 23, she was 36. They fired her. I guess her work didn't seem as fresh and edgy when they realized it wasn't being written by a kid.

-k

Sorry about your experience, grandma.

[kimmy]

What gave it away?

-k

[cybercoma]

The edge obviously