socialist Posted August 30, 2015 Author Report Posted August 30, 2015 You're absolutely right. The planet is fine and it will be. Whether it will still support 7 billion humans, however, is very much an open question. But that's OK - don't worry yourself over that. Just turn up the seat warmer in your SUV. Believe me, I won't worry. The planet can support billions more. I used to subscribe to Chicken Little's fearmongering........but no more. Quote Thankful to have become a free thinker.
ReeferMadness Posted August 30, 2015 Report Posted August 30, 2015 Dion did what everybody says they want from their politicians.....stand by their principles and decide policy on evidence.... You're right. People say that they want their politicians to be honest. But what they really want is someone who promises them they can have it all with no consequences. That's what Harper and Mulcair are promising right now. And they are the frontrunners. Read the nonsense that people post around here. People believe that the world is a magical garbage dump. Whatever we do, the world will just "adjust" and we don't have to deal with the consequences of our actions. Scientists who repeatedly warn us of the risks of our actions are only out for more research grants. So, we can just trust the magical fairies who tell us that the free market will fix everything. We just need to have more faith. The predominant religion in today's western world isn't Christianity. It's right wing economics. It doesn't work. And every time it fails, we're told it's only because we didn't have sufficient faith to adhere to it deeply enough. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
ReeferMadness Posted August 30, 2015 Report Posted August 30, 2015 I guess once you're driving over a cliff, there's a large contingent of people who aren't going to turn back even if that's possible! And, we already know which political party in Canada they call home! It's worse than that. People will ridicule those who tell them they are going off the side of a cliff and listen to messiahs who tell them that they are really flying. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
blueblood Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 You're right. People say that they want their politicians to be honest. But what they really want is someone who promises them they can have it all with no consequences. That's what Harper and Mulcair are promising right now. And they are the frontrunners. Read the nonsense that people post around here. People believe that the world is a magical garbage dump. Whatever we do, the world will just "adjust" and we don't have to deal with the consequences of our actions. Scientists who repeatedly warn us of the risks of our actions are only out for more research grants. So, we can just trust the magical fairies who tell us that the free market will fix everything. We just need to have more faith. The predominant religion in today's western world isn't Christianity. It's right wing economics. It doesn't work. And every time it fails, we're told it's only because we didn't have sufficient faith to adhere to it deeply enough. Its not "right wing economics". Its the way things go. The lefty experiment HAS failed. The usa went through depressions and recessions before and still remains. Far better than venezuela and the former ussr. THAT is a failure. The only "failure" is people that dont get off their ass to take responsibility for their actions which results in poverty Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
eyeball Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 The capitalist experiment will and is failing in many places for the very same reason Venezuela and the USSR's experiment with socialism did, the aversion to transparency and accountability that seizes just about anyone who finds themselves in positions of real power. The greater the power the greater the aversion. It's this particular thing that keeps failing and why people don't get off their asses and take responsibility for that is a bit of a mystery. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Argus Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 Just keep telling yourself that. It probably works better with heavy doses of pharmaceuticals. You can be the last one to believe it. I've been thinking almost all your opinions are formed with heavy doses of pharmaceuticals, and given your name, well... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 So you consider yourself one of the few abnormals out there? I consider myself one of the few here who is sane, intelligent, and open-minded. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 The capitalist experiment will and is failing in many places for the very same reason Venezuela and the USSR's experiment with socialism did, the aversion to transparency and accountability that seizes just about anyone who finds themselves in positions of real power. The greater the power the greater the aversion. And what sort of government do you propose? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 The same thing everyone believes. Nothing unique. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
eyeball Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 And what sort of government do you propose?One that is a completely open book to its citizens. No secrets, no backrooms, no lies.That's all. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Argus Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 One that is a completely open book to its citizens. No secrets, no backrooms, no lies. That's all. And is there an institution on planet earth which is run according to such a policy? Has there ever been? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 Its not "right wing economics". Its the way things go. The lefty experiment HAS failed.I'm sorry, what? The right wing supply-side experiment is what we've working with since the 1980s. That's the failure that we can't drag ourselves out of. That's what has created long term unemployment and drawn out recessions. Quote
eyeball Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 And is there an institution on planet earth which is run according to such a policy? Has there ever been? No. And notice how every single government eventually fails. There isn't a single one that's more than 230 years old (the US) and its showing a lot of wear and tear too. Your question seems to imply such an institution is either an undesirable or unachievable state yet people keep imagining, hoping and claiming otherwise. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
WIP Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 I get it that you don't like oil.You likely don't have anything or use anything derived from oil in your daily activities either do you? http://listverse.com/2012/12/23/10-everyday-things-that-started-life-as-oil/ If your side had better options than simply personalizing the dilemma of modernity you would be using it! For my part, I'm divesting from oil as much as I can, and I will likely be totally off the grid after I retire and follow my dream of moving up north (I've already bought some land). But you know as well as I do that there are three distinct groups in the debate: 1. the deadenders, who have planted their flag in more carbon extraction, and aren't going to change until civilization ends. 2. the moderate majority, who want to wear green, but want their present materialistic/energy-wasting lifestyle too much to support policies that will make the necessary carbon reductions. 3. the "extremists", who recognize the crisis in the near future is lethal, and are willing to make whatever sacrifices are necessary to keep a livable world for future generations around the world/not just locally. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 Believe me, I won't worry. The planet can support billions more. I used to subscribe to Chicken Little's fearmongering........but no more. 1. we can't keep relying on fossil fuels for environmental reasons and declining resource quality. 2. if we have to go completely off fossil fuels....as could happen much sooner than most people think as the costs of developing new oil are exceeding the consumer's ability to pay, and leading to shrinkage of new capital to invest in future oil development, it will leave a world where one billion (at most) are able to survive. Guess all of the possible disaster scenarios in a nuclear age when billions are on the move in a desperate struggle for food.....Europe is just starting to get a glimpse of the future right now. It's a long article with lots of charts and graphs cross-posted at oilprice.com, so I'll leave the link for anyone who really wants to contemplate how the present grinding down of international finance intersects with oil and resource development in the real world: We Could See An Economic Collapse As Debt Defaults Pile Up Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Topaz Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 Since the NDP have never held the PMO, people want change and the NDP vote is change and IF they fail also, then voters may go down the line to the Green Party until they fine a party they can live with. Every party in the House should get a chance to proof what they can do, just like the Alliance,Progressive Conservatives and the Liberals have. Quote
Argus Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 No. And notice how every single government eventually fails. There isn't a single one that's more than 230 years old (the US) and its showing a lot of wear and tear too. Your question seems to imply such an institution is either an undesirable or unachievable state yet people keep imagining, hoping and claiming otherwise. It implies its completely unrealistic, yes. Just to start with, human nature is such that competitors for a position, ie, in government, will always seek to put the best possible spin on themselves and their policies, while the other side will seek to put the worst. Expecting honesty from both sides is ridiculous. Likewise, again, for fairly obvious reasons, those in power have no desire to see their errors, or the errors of the public servants beneath them, highly publicized, for it is seen as a reflection on them, even when it's not. You can rail against human nature all you want, but you can't fight it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
WIP Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 You're right. People say that they want their politicians to be honest. But what they really want is someone who promises them they can have it all with no consequences. That's what Harper and Mulcair are promising right now. And they are the frontrunners. Read the nonsense that people post around here. People believe that the world is a magical garbage dump. Whatever we do, the world will just "adjust" and we don't have to deal with the consequences of our actions. Scientists who repeatedly warn us of the risks of our actions are only out for more research grants. So, we can just trust the magical fairies who tell us that the free market will fix everything. We just need to have more faith. Most of the problem is that we are swamped by two alternative streams of propaganda on most issues that vary between conservative and liberal. Anything outside of that limited allowed range takes a little effort to find on the internet. When Stephan Dion proposed a revenue-neutral carbon tax similar to one from the Green Party, he wasn't offering something really radical, but merely a tool to turn down the spigots that favour oil and gas and give alternative energy a chance....so it was an easy issue for opponents to demagogue. Most people lack curiosity and just go with the propaganda they hear most. The same thing happened here in Ontario when we had a chance for partial proportional representation. Most people aren't going to realize that the future isn't going to be easy until we start getting the breakdowns in infrastructure and services that afflict most third world countries already. The predominant religion in today's western world isn't Christianity. It's right wing economics. It doesn't work. And every time it fails, we're told it's only because we didn't have sufficient faith to adhere to it deeply enough. The kind of Christianity that exists today in evangelical and other rightwing churches is completely opposite most Christian values taught until less than a century ago: Jesus said "my kingdom is no part of this world," yet America is deluged with the "American exceptionalism" version of Christianity. The new and old testaments are filled with verses admonishing followers to take care of the poor/while heaping a lot of scorn on the rich...but since 'prosperity gospel' came along, wealth is a sign of God's blessings and poverty is a sign of personal failings and falling short of God's grace. It's off topic, but I'm looking forward to what happens when Pope Francis comes to Philadelphia and gives Americans another unwelcome reminder of how much their Christianity has diverged from tradition. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 Since the NDP have never held the PMO, people want change and the NDP vote is change and IF they fail also, then voters may go down the line to the Green Party until they fine a party they can live with. Every party in the House should get a chance to proof what they can do, just like the Alliance,Progressive Conservatives and the Liberals have. What I find a little troubling about Mulcair's shifting to some kind of centrism is that it's exactly the same stupid strategy that Andrea Horvath tried here in Ontario in the last provincial election. She took the NDP to the right of the governing Liberals, and many people on the left had no where to go except put the Liberals back in for another term. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Argus Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 Since the NDP have never held the PMO, people want change and the NDP vote is change and IF they fail also, then voters may go down the line to the Green Party until they fine a party they can live with. Every party in the House should get a chance to proof what they can do, just like the Alliance,Progressive Conservatives and the Liberals have. Does that include the Nazis when they form a party in the new proportional rep system? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 Does that include the Nazis when they form a party in the new proportional rep system?For everyone else's edification because Argus has me on ignore and can't see my posts unless someone quotes me: There's roughly 25 million eligible voters in Canada for this coming election. At a 5% threshold that means the Neo Nazi Party must run enough candidates to get 1.25 million people to vote for them. Considering each riding has on average about 100,000 people that means they would have to completely convince every last voter in 12 ridings plus another half riding. Now getting every last vote in a riding is not realistic. However, what do you suppose the chances are of a Neo Nazi Party carrying enough votes to take 12.5 ridings, even if they are spread over the country? To put this into even more perspective, the Green Party received 576000 votes in the last election or less than half of what the Nazi Party would need to earn break a 5% threshold in the coming election. But who said 5%? A lot of countries with PR use 3% as a threshold. At 3%, 750000 voters would need to cast a ballot for the Neo Nazi Party for them to take any seats. To put that into perspective, that's equivalent to the entire population of New Brunswick casting a ballot for Nazis. Sorry, but your fear mongering just isn't realistic. Quote
The_Squid Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 For everyone else's edification because Argus has me on ignore and can't see my posts unless someone quotes me: There's roughly 25 million eligible voters in Canada for this coming election. At a 5% threshold that means the Neo Nazi Party must run enough candidates to get 1.25 million people to vote for them. Considering each riding has on average about 100,000 people that means they would have to completely convince every last voter in 12 ridings plus another half riding. Now getting every last vote in a riding is not realistic. However, what do you suppose the chances are of a Neo Nazi Party carrying enough votes to take 12.5 ridings, even if they are spread over the country? To put this into even more perspective, the Green Party received 576000 votes in the last election or less than half of what the Nazi Party would need to earn break a 5% threshold in the coming election. But who said 5%? A lot of countries with PR use 3% as a threshold. At 3%, 750000 voters would need to cast a ballot for the Neo Nazi Party for them to take any seats. To put that into perspective, that's equivalent to the entire population of New Brunswick casting a ballot for Nazis. Sorry, but your fear mongering just isn't realistic. I agree with CC... Argus' suggestion that the Nazi Party will win enough support to have seats in Parliament is a ridiculous and fanciful notion. Fear mongering? Or just an inability to perform simple math? I'm not sure which one. Quote
On Guard for Thee Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 I agree with CC... Argus' suggestion that the Nazi Party will win enough support to have seats in Parliament is a ridiculous and fanciful notion. Fear mongering? Or just an inability to perform simple math? I'm not sure which one. Can't be the latter as he has already informed us in a status update how extremely intelligent he is. Quote
ToadBrother Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 I agree with CC... Argus' suggestion that the Nazi Party will win enough support to have seats in Parliament is a ridiculous and fanciful notion. Fear mongering? Or just an inability to perform simple math? I'm not sure which one. Both, I would think. The best ironic attack on PR comes from Tory supporters who say "We could be like Israel!" even as the Government basically makes it clear that Israel can do no wrong. There were similar bizarre, math-ignorant attacks on the STV system in the two referendums in BC. Basically, the biggest complaint was "Wow, it's soooooooo hard to figure out who won," even though anyone with grade 10 level algebra and a piece of paper could have worked through the not very complicated formulas. Quote
cybercoma Posted August 31, 2015 Report Posted August 31, 2015 I just think if there's anywhere between 750,000 and 1,250,000 Nazis in the country who would be willing to vote for a Nazi Party, we've got a lot bigger problem on our hands than the electoral system. Quote
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