Ontario's ORPP - What's Your Opinion?

[socialist]

Between her comments about it being a tool to generate money for infrastructure and the isolating government employees from this pension makes me very weary of it.

I think it is being created so Ontario can have a customer for Ontario Government Bonds. Something I would not invest in for my retirement, unless forced.

I'm not convinced this thing will ever lift off, not when Wynne is struggling with costs for green energy and all-day kindergarten, a looming confrontation with teachers, a very public battle with Harper (she is out of her league here) and now, China signaling that we are headed into global deflation...the worst fear of spendthrift governments.

[socialist]

Why can't it be invested no different than CPP or the multiple successful public pension funds? Use the same brokers and reduce the fees.

For the first time in human history a special selective tax on non-unionized workers is invented. Not too many of this kind of taxes have ever existed. I can only compare this Machiavellian tax to the tax on childlessness existed in the former USSR and a tax on bribes taken by government officials in the Ottoman Empire.

[socialist]

McWynnty doesn't know how much it'll cost to administer the program. That's why they want the Feds to deal with it (a la the HST)

I think it's a game of Chicken, Ontario doesn't want to go it on their own here. They're praying a party that will administer the plan will get elected, otherwise it'll likely be a Boondoggle.

I cannot stress enough the importance of the ORPP issue. People are so apathetic to it. This is their future, their retirement. Once you get there, there is no turning back. I can guarantee that the money will be taken, yet 40 years down the line there will be nothing left. Wynne has already promised to spend it, rather than invest. Roads and teachers unions don't pay interest. She will be long gone and retirees will be left empty handed.

Harper knows it. I know it.

Sadly those who are blissfully unaffected control this province.

[Michael Hardner]

Is it possible Ontarians' tolerance for public service union militancy and resulting appeasement by their employer/bootlicker has reached a breaking point?[/size]

Wait, wait... what about your own teachers' union ? Are you going to opt out of the pension plan ?

[Big Guy]

As for pay-outs in this plan and the CPP, I would like to see a means test. A beginning could be that those with an income over $100,000 a year after retirement or a net worth over $2 million would receive only a fraction in pensions.

[Argus]

this CBC article provides significantly different numbers... even with a presumed GIS clawback on the lowest earning example, retirement benefits are still greater overall... the suggestion that someone would be better off putting that money into a TFSA is a part of the point! Clearly, lower and middle-income Canadians have not embraced voluntary TFSA's anywhere near to the level of those with higher incomes... go figure!

The CBC article doesn't go below $45,000, and the amount that it suggest you would gain as an ORPP pension for that is $6400 while the Financial Post says the amount a person earning $30,000 would make is $4500 per year. However, after the clawback because they would get less from the GIC that is reduced to $2250. It therefore does not look like the CBC article took the clawback into account.

[drummindiver]

All I can say is I am over the moon I won't be involved in her littl(and by little I mean gargantuan) tax grab. Extrapolate this incompetence federally and we are all effed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/15/appalling-liberal-incompetence?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=recommend-button&utm_campaign=Appalling+Liberal+incompetence&fb_action_ids=850099055075535&fb_action_types=og.recommends

[drummindiver]

d

Edited August 16, 2015 by drummindiver

[Argus]

All I can say is I am over the moon I won't be involved in her littl(and by little I mean gargantuan) tax grab. Extrapolate this incompetence federally and we are all effed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/15/appalling-liberal-incompetence?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=recommend-button&utm_campaign=Appalling+Liberal+incompetence&fb_action_ids=850099055075535&fb_action_types=og.recommends

The Ontario Liberals are certainly the most incompetent government in the province's history, and may well be the most incompetent major government in Canadian history. From the economy to health care, from education to energy there isn't a file they haven't' screwed up. Ontario used to be the engine of Canada's economy. Now it's the anchor holding it back.

[waldo]

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/15/appalling-liberal-incompetence?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=recommend-button&utm_campaign=Appalling+Liberal+incompetence&fb_action_ids=850099055075535&fb_action_types=og.recommends

that's a most unusual position for the Sun/Goldstein to take! Again, the repeated references to the Wynne government's "green energy disaster" - a "catch phrase now"! I wonder at what point you "catch phrasers" will actually step-up and, with specific/details, speak to Ontario energy costs in an attribution that correlates and distinguishes green from conventional. I seem to recall a few past threads along this theme that didn't quite line up with you "catch-phrasers", hey!

[Topaz]

The Ontario Liberals are certainly the most incompetent government in the province's history, and may well be the most incompetent major government in Canadian history. From the economy to health care, from education to energy there isn't a file they haven't' screwed up. Ontario used to be the engine of Canada's economy. Now it's the anchor holding it back.

You're right Argus Ontario was the manufacturing province of Canada and then slowly those US companies started to go south or else where and what did the PC party under Harris do...let the Auto |Pact expire and so is the auto manufacturing.

[socialist]

Wait, wait... what about your own teachers' union ? Are you going to opt out of the pension plan ?

This is a horrible deal for workers. Even you, Mike, have to admit it.

Let's do the math. As per the ORPP website, someone earning $90,000 per year will contribute $4.50 per day. That's $1,642.50 per year. With the employer matching,$3,285.00 is being contributed to the plan every year. The ORPP website indicates that if the $90,000 earner contributes to the plan for 40 years, they will receive an annual benefit of $12,815.00, for life. Given that the average mortality age for females is 84 (80 for men, an even worse deal!), and assuming a retirement age of 60 (a best case scenario for most workers), for a female worker, the plan will pay out $307,560.00. Assuming interest on investment compounds monthly, the overall rate of return is 3.6% per year! To put this in perspective, over the last 100 years, the average annual return of the S&P 500 has been roughly 9%.

If one were to assume a retirement age of 65, and apply the calculations to a male worker (also earning $90,000 per year), the annual rate of return drops to 1.9%!

But the worst part is, unlike personal savings, which could continue to earn interest after retirement, the annual rate of return for the ORPP turns to 0% once you start collecting.

This plan is horrible for workers. We need better education on pers

Edited August 16, 2015 by socialist

[socialist]

The Ontario Liberals are notorious for not doing their due diligence prior to moving ahead with their grandiose large scale plans. They either completely under estimate or purposely deceive the citizens on the costs associated (anyone want to buy a power plant). They have proven over and over that they do not have the ability to properly execute a plan of this magnitude effectively and economically.

Edited August 16, 2015 by socialist

[Ash74]

Just wondering...

Let us say JT by some miracle wins the election. With His promise of changing CPP. Do you think Wynne will no longer push this terriable idea threw?

[Argus]

that's a most unusual position for the Sun/Goldstein to take! Again, the repeated references to the Wynne government's "green energy disaster" - a "catch phrase now"! I wonder at what point you "catch phrasers" will actually step-up and, with specific/details, speak to Ontario energy costs in an attribution that correlates and distinguishes green from conventional. I seem to recall a few past threads along this theme that didn't quite line up with you "catch-phrasers", hey!

Does energy in Ontario cost twice what it does in the surrounding jurisdictions? Yep. So what else do you need to know?

[socialist]

Does energy in Ontario cost twice what it does in the surrounding jurisdictions? Yep. So what else do you need to know?

The biggest news is how the public sector pension has a shortfall of 7 Billion dollars. This is the same story pretty much everywhere there is a public sector union and their pension. We are on the hook for this. This is why Wynne wants her ORPP. To pillage it for her union buddies.

[DFCaper]

Just wondering...

Let us say JT by some miracle wins the election. With His promise of changing CPP. Do you think Wynne will no longer push this terriable idea threw?

This should be a Liberal ad. I may consider this as a strong reason to vote for the Federal Liberals. To stop plans of the Provincial Liberals.

[waldo]

Does energy in Ontario cost twice what it does in the surrounding jurisdictions? Yep. So what else do you need to know?

twice? Twice now.... last time didn't you declare it "double and three times as much"? I put forward that Quebec Hydro annual analysis of electrical costs across North America... busting your narrative. Of course, all I got back was something along the lines of ... "well, that's cities... Ontario is more than cities"! I've yet to read anyone present actual legitimate comparative costing to support "double... triple". I've yet to read anyone attribute increased costs to, singularly and solely, your declared "green energy disaster"! As you say, "so what else do you need to know"?

[Argus]

twice? Twice now.... last time didn't you declare it "double and three times as much"? I put forward that Quebec Hydro annual analysis of electrical costs across North America... busting your narrative. Of course, all I got back was something along the lines of ... "well, that's cities... Ontario is more than cities"! I've yet to read anyone present actual legitimate comparative costing to support "double... triple". I've yet to read anyone attribute increased costs to, singularly and solely, your declared "green energy disaster"! As you say, "so what else do you need to know"?

AMPCO’s latest benchmarking analysis compares Ontario’s industrial rates with those in other provinces in Canada as well as selected US markets. Our analysis shows that Ontario has the highest industrial rates in North America. Ontario not only has the highest delivered rates of all these jurisdictions; the disparity in rates also is growing.

http://www.ampco.org/index.cfm?pagePath=Analysis/Benchmarking&id=36556

[socialist]

You're right Argus Ontario was the manufacturing province of Canada and then slowly those US companies started to go south or else where and what did the PC party under Harris do...let the Auto |Pact expire and so is the auto manufacturing.

I think that is why Wynne is campaigning so hard for Trudeau. She is in a bit of a pickle. She introduced ORPP to change the channel on all the scandals. It worked and she got elected. Now she is stuck with an unworkable program. The Liberals have promised an expanded CPP. If the Liberals get elected she has an out. She can endorse an expanded CPP and drop ORPP, which even she knows is ridiculous.

[Ash74]

Wynne may have actually helped JT.

http://www.thestar.com/news/queenspark/2015/10/13/trudeau-win-could-negate-need-for-ontario-pension-wynne.html

Who would have thought a campaign promise that says " I will not do this stupid thing if you vote for the person I want you too"

Brilliant

If Wynne promises to resign if JT wins The liberals will sweep all of Ontario

[socialist]

It's pretty depressing to see the Butts school of liberalism winning in, of all places, Ontario. I used to have faith in people's ability to discern being served with being screwed, but Ontario shows people don't care about being screwed as long as they're getting what they want and think someone else is getting stuck with the tab. You'd hope that at some point they'd clue in and do the right thing, but Greece shows that even when the reality train pulls into the station, these people still won't change their minds. The thing that kills me is Trudeau is so much the opposite of what progressives claim to want; a silver spoon scion, the very embodiment of the 1% who is only in this thing because of his pedigree and name. I'm tempted to throw a vote to Mulcair. The man has a clown car for a party but at least they actually believe what they claim to.

[Scotty]

It depends on your philosophy and vision of how our society should function. The CPP is an attempt to force people into planning for their retirement. I believe that any method that a government can use to force people to become more responsible for their retirement then the better for society as a whole. It takes self discipline and planning to prepare yourself for a comfortable retirement - a trait not too many people seem to have.

And many do have. The CPP is designed to provide a minimal level of income in old age. Combined with the GIS and OAS it has virtually eliminated poverty among seniors. Low income people sometimes actually see an increase in their income when retiring. Wynne's intervention to add this new mandatory pension contribution will force more money out of people who can ill afford it, for pensions they don't need, and there's no guarantee the pensions will, in the end, be worth what they're being forced to contribute, let alone what the companies are. This is especially true given this will conflict with the federal GIS to the effect that poor people will NEVER collect what they put in.

There are those who do not believe in any government program for illness or ageing or poor decisions. They feel that those not prepared should starve and die if they cannot take care of themselves. There are others who feel that every Canadian is entitled to a minimal income which allows him/her to live comfortably.

I am curious about the mentality of this sort of shrill attempt at shaming those who disagree. You seem to believe that your judgement is like the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain, and everyone who questions it is evil and properly destined for hell. There are many things wrong with this plan, and your attempt to portray everyone who brings those problems up as wanting people to starve and die is infantile and stupid.

[Scotty]

Why can't it be invested no different than CPP or the multiple successful public pension funds? Use the same brokers and reduce the fees.

The CPP doesn't have reduced fees. It's fees have been drastically rising over the past seven years since it went to a philosophy of active management. However, it has not managed to outdo what it used to make with passive management.

Of course, now that there's active management, a lot of people are making enormous amounts of money off the pension plan through broker fees.

[Big Guy]

...

I am curious about the mentality of this sort of shrill attempt at shaming those who disagree. You seem to believe that your judgement is like the tablets Moses brought down from the mountain, and everyone who questions it is evil and properly destined for hell. There are many things wrong with this plan, and your attempt to portray everyone who brings those problems up as wanting people to starve and die is infantile and stupid.

Interesting response. What I stated was the two possible extremes of dealing with the elderly: Starve because of lack of income and guaranteed income. You appear to have read it as an "either", "or" condition. That is unfortunate. There is a big difference between stating parameters and allowing only two conditions. Either I have been unclear or you are looking for something of substance with which to criticize my posts. Only you have that answer.

I suggest also that what you seem to believe about what I seem to believe is unbelievable. I also suggest the references to good, evil, Moses and hell indicate far more about your attitude than mine.

Finally, why would referring to my post as "infantile and stupid" encourage me to give credibility to your view and/or engage in any future communications with you?