Does the Sandra Bland story outrage you?

jbg · July 28, 2015

I tend to think the only issues she had was being black and getting stopped by a racist cop for not putting her signal on.

So most people who are unjustly imprisoned commit suicide?

On Guard for Thee · July 28, 2015

So most people who are unjustly imprisoned commit suicide?

The verdict isn't yet totally in on her suicide. But the issue we should be dealing with is why she was unjustly imprisoned.

bush_cheney2004 · July 28, 2015

No it's not illegal. It's legal to be sitting in your car too. But if a police officer asks you to get out of the vehicle, you'd be wise to comply. If you feel that your rights have been violated, there's legal recourse afterwords. It's wise in most cases to not take the law into your own hands. Especially over something as insignificant as a cigarette.

Yes, but more than just wise. Officer's can legally direct occupants to leave the vehicle (per Pennsylvania v. Mimms):

Against this important interest we are asked to weigh the intrusion into the driver's personal liberty occasioned not by the initial stop of the vehicle, which was admittedly justified, but by the order to get out of the car. We think this additional intrusion can only be described as de minimis. The driver is being asked to expose to view very little more of his person than is already exposed. The police have already lawfully decided that the driver shall be briefly detained; the only question is whether he shall spend that period sitting in the driver's seat of his car or standing alongside it. Not only is the insistence of the police on the latter choice not a "serious intrusion upon the sanctity of the person," but it hardly rises to the level of a "`petty indignity.'" Terry v. Ohio, supra, at 17. What is at most a mere inconvenience cannot prevail when balanced against legitimate concerns for the officer's safety.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16533225265380952768&q=pa+v+mimms&hl=en&as_sdt=40006

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_v._Mimms

On Guard for Thee · July 28, 2015

Yes, but more than just wise. Officer's can legally direct occupants to leave the vehicle (per Pennsylvania v. Mimms):

Against this important interest we are asked to weigh the intrusion into the driver's personal liberty occasioned not by the initial stop of the vehicle, which was admittedly justified, but by the order to get out of the car. We think this additional intrusion can only be described as de minimis. The driver is being asked to expose to view very little more of his person than is already exposed. The police have already lawfully decided that the driver shall be briefly detained; the only question is whether he shall spend that period sitting in the driver's seat of his car or standing alongside it. Not only is the insistence of the police on the latter choice not a "serious intrusion upon the sanctity of the person," but it hardly rises to the level of a "`petty indignity.'" Terry v. Ohio, supra, at 17. What is at most a mere inconvenience cannot prevail when balanced against legitimate concerns for the officer's safety.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16533225265380952768&q=pa+v+mimms&hl=en&as_sdt=40006

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_v._Mimms

Nope.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/13-9972_p8k0.pdf

jacee · July 28, 2015

No it's not. Nor is asking somebody to stop talking on their phone during a stop. But if one feels that way, then challenge it in court afterwards. It's smart to pick ones battles.

It's smart for a woman to resist a thug yanking her out of her car illegally.

It's smart for a woman illegally detained by a thug to try to use her phone to call for help.

You don't 'submit' to illegal attacks.

You fight.

.

Edited July 28, 2015 by jacee

jacee · July 28, 2015

No it's not illegal. It's legal to be sitting in your car too. But if a police officer asks you to get out of the vehicle, you'd be wise to comply.

Because some cops are criminals?

You don't submit to criminal thugs!

.

jacee · July 28, 2015

I tend to think the only issues she had was being black and getting stopped by a racist cop for not putting her signal on.

Specifically, being a black activist ... the reason he was tailing her ... the reason she changed lanes.

.

On Guard for Thee · July 28, 2015

It's smart for a woman to resist a thug yanking her out of her car illegally.

It's smart for a woman illegally detained by a thug to try to use her phone to call for help.

You don't 'submit' to illegal attacks.

You fight.

.

It is obviously quite sad that this case had to end in the death of this innocent young lady. What makes me grit my teeth (well one thing) is this idea espoused by some that you should just succumb to the kind of treatment meted out by this goon, and then go spend a million bucks or so on lawyers fees later on to try and fight it in court. I hope her family sues the you know what out of this PD, but more importantly, that the notoriety of the case will cause police forces to take another look at how they train, weed out the types like Encinia, and hopefully protect against further unlawful arrests such as this tragedy became.

bush_cheney2004 · July 28, 2015

It's smart for a woman to resist a thug yanking her out of her car illegally.

It's smart for a woman illegally detained by a thug to try to use her phone to call for help.

You don't 'submit' to illegal attacks.

You fight.

.

Ergo..."it's smart" to kill yourself in a jail cell. You don't submit to the "thug's" legal processs...that will show them !

On Guard for Thee · July 28, 2015

Ergo..."it's smart" to kill yourself in a jail cell. You don't submit to the "thug's" legal processs...that will show them !

I think in this case you meant to say illegal process.

Shady · July 28, 2015

As a society, we give police special and extra power, in order to maintain a civil society. With those powers always comes the possibility of them being abused. But because of the authority we bestow on law enforcement, it's always the smart thing, within reason, to go along with an arrest or request, and then challenge any wrongdoing afterwords. It's not a choice as to whether one complies with an arrest. It's not a debate, and it's not up for discussion. That discussion and debate would come afterwords. If it was just an ordinary citizen, than this wouldn't apply. Being asked to put out a cigarette is hardly a human rights abuse worthy of escalation.

Shady · July 28, 2015

It's smart for a woman to resist a thug yanking her out of her car illegally.

It's smart for a woman illegally detained by a thug to try to use her phone to call for help.

You don't 'submit' to illegal attacks.

You fight.

.

Very poor advice. It's never a good idea to resist arrest. You fight afterwords through the legal process. Fighting before is just idiocy.

On Guard for Thee · July 28, 2015

As a society, we give police special and extra power, in order to maintain a civil society. With those powers always comes the possibility of them being abused. But because of the authority we bestow on law enforcement, it's always the smart thing, within reason, to go along with an arrest or request, and then challenge any wrongdoing afterwords. It's not a choice as to whether one complies with an arrest. It's not a debate, and it's not up for discussion. That discussion and debate would come afterwords. If it was just an ordinary citizen, than this wouldn't apply. Being asked to put out a cigarette is hardly a human rights abuse worthy of escalation.

Not sure what your "just a ordinary citizen" comment means, but yes you are right, the cigarette thing was o reason to escalate this situation, and hopefully the cop will be held accountable for it.

Shady · July 28, 2015

Not sure what your "just a ordinary citizen" comment means, but yes you are right, the cigarette thing was o reason to escalate this situation, and hopefully the cop will be held accountable for it.

Absolutely.

bush_cheney2004 · July 28, 2015

Nothing the police officer did excuses or mitigates the choices that Bland made....ultimately choosing to kill herself.

Black Dog · July 28, 2015

As a society, we give police special and extra power, in order to maintain a civil society. With those powers always comes the possibility of them being abused. But because of the authority we bestow on law enforcement, it's always the smart thing, within reason, to go along with an arrest or request, and then challenge any wrongdoing afterwords. It's not a choice as to whether one complies with an arrest. It's not a debate, and it's not up for discussion. That discussion and debate would come afterwords. If it was just an ordinary citizen, than this wouldn't apply. Being asked to put out a cigarette is hardly a human rights abuse worthy of escalation.

Blah blah blah.Only the guilty have reason to fear blah blah blah.

Funny how so many people who freak out about big government care not a whit for actual abuses by agents of the state. That you can look at an entire community with a profound distrust for agents of the state and decide that things would be fine if they just acquiesced to every demand, no matter how trivial, demeaning or even illegal.

Thing is, I bet most people in over-policed heavily profiled minority communities understand the consequences of disobeying cops better than you or I. And they are also aware that obeying a cop doesn't necessarily mean you get an easy ride either.

On Guard for Thee · July 28, 2015

Nothing the police officer did excuses or mitigates the choices that Bland made....ultimately choosing to kill herself.

Not putting out her cigarette mitigates being thrown to the ground and handcuffed. What sort of police state do you choose to live in?

Shady · July 28, 2015

Blah blah blah.Only the guilty have reason to fear blah blah blah.Funny how so many people who freak out about big government care not a whit for actual abuses by agents of the state. That you can look at an entire community with a profound distrust for agents of the state and decide that things would be fine if they just acquiesced to every demand, no matter how trivial, demeaning or even illegal.Thing is, I bet most people in over-policed heavily profiled minority communities understand the consequences of disobeying cops better than you or I. And they are also aware that obeying a cop doesn't necessarily mean you get an easy ride either.

Sure. But I'm not telling anyone to disobey anything, it's our white privileged forum members that insist.

bush_cheney2004 · July 28, 2015

Sure. But I'm not telling anyone to disobey anything, it's our white privileged forum members that insist.

Well, they are experts on the "black" experience in the USA, just ask 'em. Plus they watch a lot of U.S. television.

Black Dog · July 28, 2015

Sure. But I'm not telling anyone to disobey anything, it's our white privileged forum members that insist.

Yes, some people are asserting that people should exercise their rights, a concept that I guess is baffling to a fauxservative like you.

On Guard for Thee · July 28, 2015

Well, they are experts on the "black" experience in the USA, just ask 'em. Plus they watch a lot of U.S. television.

No, but we did watch the dashcam video.

Shady · July 28, 2015

Yes, some people are asserting that people should exercise their rights, a concept that I guess is baffling to a fauxservative like you.

A right to smoke a cigarette in public? You need to pick your battles and follow up later on through the legal process. The more people do that, the less enthusiastic cops will be to abuse their power.