Mighty AC Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) What do we do. Get out of there the faster the better. The sooner the Sunnis and Shia can find a winner the sooner the refugees can go home. Stay out of the Middle East. Let them work out their own problems and once the winners are declared then deal with them. Why is it that we interfere in Middle Eastern affairs but ignore other genocide and human rights violations around the world? The faster we can replace fossil fuels with renewables, the sooner we can avoid the collateral damage of our addiction. Green energy solves so many problems (health, environment, economic, foreign affairs, etc.) all at once. Edited September 3, 2015 by Mighty AC Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I'm not interested in your ideology before facts approach. Your silly little diagram had no facts. I have now posted them. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Why is it that we interfere in Middle Eastern affairs but ignore other genocide and human rights violations around the world? So you're saying we should ignore genocide and human rights violations everywhere? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Big Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 That is an out and out nonsensical lie. The fighting in Syria, Iraq and Libya was well underway long before anyone even suggested western powers should 'do something' to put an end to it. I suggest that you consider the difference between a civil war where the two warring sides are citizens and both claim ownership of the same country and an outside country with overwhelming military power coming in on one side or the other. It is not a lie and certainly sensible to those who follow the conflicts in the area. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I suggest that you consider the difference between a civil war where the two warring sides are citizens and both claim ownership of the same country and an outside country with overwhelming military power coming in on one side or the other. Well, most of the refugees are from Syria, and that's a civil war with virtually no outside interference, certainly none from us. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Mighty AC Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Your silly little diagram had no facts. I have now posted them. The full report preceded the diagram by one post. Tricky... So you're saying we should ignore genocide and human rights violations everywhere? No, I asked a question. Why do we involve ourselves in Middle Eastern affairs yet ignore other, often far worse, genocides and human rights violations around the world? Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 So your saying 2.5 million people over Harpers term is not enough, considering we are a nation of just over what 40 million....2.5 million sounds a little high... Next time you're looking for a discussion topic. Ask someone who isn't particularly involved politically how many immigrants they think we bring in each year. I saw a piece a while back which said most people think it's under 100,000. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) The full report preceded the diagram by one post. Tricky... Not interested in biased information. I posted the reports to parliament which show immigration has gone up. And Harper has promised to increase it further this year. No, I asked a question. Why do we involve ourselves in Middle Eastern affairs yet ignore other, often far worse, genocides and human rights violations around the world? I don't know. Why does Israel get so much press when the same shite happens all across the globe? Because that part of the world has a lot of cameras and gets a lot of attention. What can I say? Edited September 3, 2015 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Big Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Why is it that we interfere in Middle Eastern affairs but ignore other genocide and human rights violations around the world? The faster we can replace fossil fuels with renewables, the sooner we can avoid the collateral damage of our addiction. Green energy solves so many problems (health, environment, economic, foreign affairs, etc.) all at once. I agree that the Western need for oil started this whole business many years ago. Things have changed. Through fracking, North America is no longer dependent on the Middle East for oil. Now these folks are going to have to figure out how their economies are going to survive. For years North America had an interesting philosophy of self determination; - All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of the right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. I believe that those people should have that right - without our interference. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I believe that those people should have that right - without our interference. Sooo no interfering with genocide? Is that your position? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
On Guard for Thee Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Cite. Here are the reports to parliament for 2005, the last year of Chretien's reign, and for 2014. Canada became home to 235,824 new permanent residents in 2004. http://Canada admitted 258,953 new permanent residents in 2013, a slight increase over 2012 (257,887) and a higher level than the average number of admissions from 2009–2013 (257,000). You'll notice I specified percentages in my post. Quote
Scotty Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 You'll notice I specified percentages in my post. If I understand you, what you're saying is that because Canada's overall population rose due to immigration, that should mean we ought to take even more immigrants? And the more our population rises due to immigration, the more immigrants we must take? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Army Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 A 30% lower acceptance rate of refugees is a problem. Setting deportation quotas to strip refugee claimants of their status is a bad idea. Also making it harder to reunite immigrants with their family is a problem. Yet, under Harper temporary migrant worker program has exploded. Harper is fine with wage depressing, cheap labour but not so comfortable housing those displaced by war. I would think that 2.5 million accepted over Harpers term of office, would be enough, considering our total population numbers overall....what number would be acceptable to you ? I read your source , im confused as it does not say why the deportations are happening, are they here illegally, or claims been denied, could you please explain the numbers..... Is it Harpers fault that these cheap labor jobs are not being filled by Canadians.....is it Harpers fault that Canadians don't want to work for min wage..... Funny how even the NDP won't champion a raise to the overall Min wage , for all Canadians....But just to federal workers....i don't think there is a federal job that pays under 15 dollars a hour.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Mighty AC Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Not interested in biased information. I posted the reports to parliament which show immigration has gone up. And Harper has promised to increase it further this year.Yet refugee acceptance is down 30%. Why do you support war on humanitarian grounds but not helping the people displaced by it? Also, why do you support a government that is happy to send soldiers into battle but mistreats them upon return? I don't know. Why does Israel get so much press when the same shite happens all across the globe? Because that part of the world has a lot of cameras and gets a lot of attention. What can I say?So you think it's just a weird coincidence that the developed world is so involved in the middle east? Like I said, the faster we quit oil, the faster our perceived need to interfere in ME affairs disappears. We can then choose to fight crimes against humanity on the basis of need. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Big Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Well, most of the refugees are from Syria, and that's a civil war with virtually no outside interference, certainly none from us. The coalition has been bombing Syrian targets for over a year and Canada has been bombing for over 4 months. I assumed that you would have known that. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Sooo no interfering with genocide? Is that your position? Thanks for your time. Get back to me when you desire some serious discussion. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
On Guard for Thee Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 If I understand you, what you're saying is that because Canada's overall population rose due to immigration, that should mean we ought to take even more immigrants? And the more our population rises due to immigration, the more immigrants we must take? Especially in light of the current situation. Quote
Mighty AC Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I would think that 2.5 million accepted over Harpers term of office, would be enough, considering our total population numbers overall....what number would be acceptable to you ? Immigration is not the same as refugee claimants. Making it harder for immigrants to reunite with families is an ethical mistake. Is it Harpers fault that these cheap labor jobs are not being filled by Canadians.....is it Harpers fault that Canadians don't want to work for min wage..... Funny how even the NDP won't champion a raise to the overall Min wage , for all Canadians....But just to federal workers....i don't think there is a federal job that pays under 15 dollars a hour.... I don't believe the federal government can set the minimum wage for the provinces, hence the promise to increase it for federal workers. Also, migrant workers earn less than Canadians who would do the same job as they can be made to work 100 hours per week without any OT requirement. In your opinion should any business that can't fill jobs for minimum wage be permitted to import people that will? Construction, factories, IT, services, etc? Do you think it is acceptable for market forces to determine the price of goods and services based on supply and demand, but wages in the labour market can be artificially depressed by temporary migrant workers? Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
Army Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 According to the figures I can find, about 150,000 Iraqi civilians and about 200,000 Syrian civilians have been killed in this latest conflict. To the best of my knowledge, ISIS is made of the remnants of the Republican Guard that became unemployed when we took Saddam out. If we did not created then who did. I believe that we have a very different understanding of what caused this refugee crisis. These folks are fleeing their homeland because their homeland is too dangerous to live in anymore. We had a lot to do with that. What do we do. Get out of there the faster the better. The sooner the Sunnis and Shia can find a winner the sooner the refugees can go home. Stay out of the Middle East. Let them work out their own problems and once the winners are declared then deal with them. . ISIL may have Republican guard members in it, but then again so has our population.... but what your suggesting is the whole sunni, shite problem has nothing to do with it....when that is one of ISIL main objectives nto carve it's own nation out.... Then answer my question why are they risking everything including their lives over and over again to get to deep europe.....why not set up camp in the first safe nation they land in....is turkey or greece unsafe countries ? what is motivating them to do that.... How is that even the latest report done by amnesty inter national have sated that NATO aircraft bombings are responsible for only 450 civilian deaths due to the bombings.....My question is then who is doing all the rest of the killing and in your opinion does that portion of this problem need to be addressed............and what your plans to stop the cause of the refugee flow....i mean you said it your self they are fleeing because they don't want to be killed.....but you plan is to let them kill each other off.....while we clean up the mess, accepting in those poor lost soles becuase they have no place to go......If we are not going to get involved , why even bother with Aid, and refugees....... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Immigration is not the same as refugee claimants. Making it harder for immigrants to reunite with families is an ethical mistake. I don't believe the federal government can set the minimum wage for the provinces, hence the promise to increase it for federal workers. Also, migrant workers earn less than Canadians who would do the same job as they can be made to work 100 hours per week without any OT requirement. In your opinion should any business that can't fill jobs for minimum wage be permitted to import people that will? Construction, factories, IT, services, etc? Do you think it is acceptable for market forces to determine the price of goods and services based on supply and demand, but wages in the labour market can be artificially depressed by temporary migrant workers? I get that, but they are tied together are they not, i mean one can't do or afford to do both right say 100,000 refugees and 100,000 immigrants..... Can you provide a source as i had the understanding that no one could work for less than min wage, No, importing workers does not make sense at all,when Canadians are out of work or refused to work....... i agree the system needs to be fixed.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 How does that make any sense....in your mind you've already wrapped all the blame for these conflicts in a nice neat package and placed it at the feets of NATO and her allieds..and will not admit that these problems require more than just accepting refugees, and giving them little humanitarian packages.....it also requires to take direct action again'st those creating the problems.... That would include us and our allies. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Army Guy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I know eyeball, you'd be content with sticking your head in the sand, and forgetting everything that happens in other places in the world.....how did you react when you seen the picture of that little boy.....did it piss you off, or did you just change the channel its not our problem.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 Are you blaming Canada for starting the Arab Spring? Because there was a ton of fighting over there before we sent over half a dozen old fighters to drop the occasional bomb. Likewise the Iraqi mess is not ours and we didn't arrive at the scene until long after the place fell apart. I blame Canada's staunchest allies for stopping the Arab Spring when they strangled democracy in its infancy in Iran 1953. I blame Canada for not stopping our goddamned allies. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Mighty AC Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I get that, but they are tied together are they not, i mean one can't do or afford to do both right say 100,000 refugees and 100,000 immigrants.....Our immigration rate per capita has been roughly the same for quite some time. Harper has just made it harder to reunite families. However, our acceptance of refugees is down 30% under Harper. We are doing less than we used to. Can you provide a source as i had the understanding that no one could work for less than min wage,I believe migrant workers must get the same minimum hourly wage, but there are no limits to hours worked and no requirement to pay overtime. Thus, it's cheaper to hire migrants than Canadians for the same job...even if Canadians would do the work for minimum wage. Additionally, we also deduct EI premiums from migrants despite the fact that they can never use it. Quote "Our lives begin to end the day we stay silent about the things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire
eyeball Posted September 3, 2015 Report Posted September 3, 2015 I know eyeball, you'd be content with sticking your head in the sand, and forgetting everything that happens in other places in the world... Like Iran 1953? ..how did you react when you seen the picture of that little boy.....did it piss you off, or did you just change the channel its not our problem.... Well, I'd read some of the comments in here before I saw the news and after listening to your ilk forever ducking our responsibility for a 100 years or so of some of the most venal diddling the human race has put on display yet, I'd say I'm pissed off, yeah, that plus disgusted of course. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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