Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

[TimG]

Sure, it leads to this because people don't like facing the uncomfortable truth of their privilege.

Calling people racist because you disagree with their opinion is nothing but an ad-hom. Dressing up an ad-hom with pseudo-intellectual BS does not make it any less an ad-hom.

[Smallc]

It isn't ours to decide.

Indigenous Peoples have self-determination.

.

And so they will continue to do poorly in the segregation that they ensure continues.

[TimG]

Anybody who thinks that assimilation is anything other than institutional cultural, and physical, genocide is fooling themselves.

First: there is assimilation and "forced assimilation". Assimilation is NOT wrong - in fact it is generally good and anyone who thinks that is problem needs to have their head checked. "forced assimilation" is wrong in sense that it the forcing violates the rights of the people being forced but violating someone's freedom of speech or freedom to association is NOT genocide.

Genocide is killing people. Full stop. And the only reason people are latching onto that term is for political propaganda purposes. The trouble is the people who do this insult the memories of people who were real victims of genocide.

Edited June 14, 2015 by TimG

[jacee]

Calling people racist because you disagree with their opinion is nothing but an ad-hom. Dressing up an ad-hom with pseudo-intellectual BS does not make it any less an ad-hom.

cybercoma didn't call you racist.

I call people racist when they can't see any possibility for the future except more efforts to repeat the past atrocities of imposing forced assimilation on Indigenous Peoples.

It's a refusal to respect their right to self-determination, their right to be Indigenous Peoples with legal rights as such.

It's a refusal to acknowledge that genocide, and a desire to continue it.

.

Edited June 14, 2015 by jacee

[drummindiver]

Did Ukrainians get an apology yet?

It was nasty.

Did they lose land?

I don't think it was on the same scale as for Indigenous Peoples.

.

It's now a contest?

[Smallc]

It's now a contest?

That's what I'm wondering. I brought it up specifically to see what would happen in that regard. I was right.

[On Guard for Thee]

You nor anyone supporting your belief has yet to take on the challenge of presenting any hard evidence. If you cannot defend your belief, I take you less serious here.

And, no, demanding that others go elsewhere to read the supposed claims is not enough. Give us a teaser other than testimonials. Tell us one case and name of someone who abused, charged, and convicted. This is a simple request since I'm sure you are the wiser one who has read the whole reports and so can point out just such evidence!

Well lets see, first we have Rev. Harold McIntee in Williams Lake BC., then Arthur Henry Plint in Port Alberni, one of the most recent is Paul Leroux of Battleford SK. All serving or have served lengthy jail terms for convictions on numerous counts of abuse of native children at residential schools. But that is just a sampling.

[drummindiver]

With a small few people on here, it is.

They are the most vocal deniers, don't change their thinking with new information, deny deny deny.

And they continue to propose that forcing Indigenous Peoples to give up all legal rights and completely assimilate is the only possible solution to the 'Indian' problem.

Stuck in the 1920's I guess.

I understand that some business and political interests might still wish that was possible, but they're smart enough to know that there are legal issues involved.

For cement head racists, as I think of them, they have a visceral irrational reaction that seems not to change with new realities.

I saw a professor on TV once, faced with the undeniable truth about legal Aboriginal rights in Canada, get absolutely red-faced spitting, doubled right over and shrieking insults at the Indigenous professor guest.

It was very revealing ... and very disturbing to see that kind of base racism in a supposedly intelligent person on TV.

Racism is racism and doesn't seem to change.

I think the 99+ % of us who can learn from history, make amends and create new directions and relationships ... just move on past those relics.

But they continue to troll the Internet for places to spew their venom.

.

And ppl who are determined to keep them living on reservations, yet decry Israel as an apartheid state for having two tier social classes are hypocrites.

And your professor story is clearly just that...cite please.

[drummindiver]

The genocide of Indigenous Peoples is all about the land.

Your suggestion that we complete the genocide via forced assimilation is illegal, immoral ... and it make you look cement headed because you haven't grasped a single thing.

I think you choose not to understand the reality of Canada, Argus.

.

Again, no genocide.

Disagreeing with you does not indicate which substance your head is made of.

[jacee]

And so they will continue to do poorly in the segregation that they ensure continues.

Recovery from 500 years of genocide takes time.

The most heinous and most recent 100 year brutal attack on the children has done a lot of damage to individuals, families and communities, as it was intended to do. Yes, they are damaged. That was the purpose of that last desperate attempt of Canada to destroy them and be rid of their legal claims on the land forever.

Recovery will take time.

.

Edited June 14, 2015 by jacee

[Smallc]

I think that it was necessary to pay some bogus claims to compensate those who actually were abused - and rightly so. I know some bogus claims did exist. I know of several for example, from people who chose to go the particular school they were at, rather than stay on reserve and be bussed to a rural school. They were paid about $80K each for 'abuse' (basically the strap).

[drummindiver]

After repeated discussions like that, and we have had many here, it does become apparent that it isn't about failure to comprehend: It's about refusal to acknowledge regardless of the facts.

It's racism.

And some simply refuse and will always be racists.

And some of them have embraced that in their lives. There are active white supremacist groups in Canada and part of their activity is trolling the Internet to disrupt discussions like this.

Canada does have a long history of white supremacist thinking.

OK.

Funny thing about racists ... they deny that too.

Not sure why when it's a point of 'pride' to them.

And can't ever go anywhere.

I agree.

Please do.

.

So, you are now calling ppl who disagree with you white supremacists?.

Of course, it's Jacee, so we'll let it go. Beyond fucking believable.

Edited June 14, 2015 by drummindiver

[Smallc]

Recovery from 500 years of genocide takes time.

Apparently what's more important is...

The most heinous and most recent 100 year brutal attack on the children has done a lot of damage to individuals, families and communities, as it was intended to do. Yes, they are damaged. That was the purpose of that last desperate attempt of Canada to destroy them and be rid of their legal claims on the land forever.

.

...determining who's fault it is. We won't move forward with your thinking.

[jacee]

That's what I'm wondering. I brought it up specifically to see what would happen in that regard. I was right.

Where's the new thread?

Canadians need to be aware of what happened to Ukrainians.

.

[jacee]

First: there is assimilation and "forced assimilation". Assimilation is NOT wrong - in fact it is generally good and anyone who thinks that is problem needs to have their head checked. "forced assimilation" is wrong in sense that it the forcing violates the rights of the people being forced but violating someone's freedom of speech or freedom to association is NOT genocide.

Forced assimilation is genocide.

Genocide is killing people. Full stop.

Wrong.

You can destroy a people other ways too, though high death rates are often involved as well.

And the only reason people are latching onto that term is for political propaganda purposes. The trouble is the people who do this insult the memories of people who were real victims of genocide.

People latch onto the truth of attempted genocide because it is the truth.

People deny the genocide because they want it to continue, want Indigenous Peoples to cease to exist with the legal and land rights they have 'as such' .

.

[TimG]

People latch onto the truth of attempted genocide because it is the truth.

It is not the "truth". Truth is based on facts that are objectively true. This is opinion. It is changing the meaning of a word in order to advance a political cause. That is pure propaganda. Edited June 14, 2015 by TimG

[jacee]

And ppl who are determined to keep them living on reservations, yet decry Israel as an apartheid state for having two tier social classes are hypocrites.

And your professor story is clearly just that...cite please.

She knows who she is. I doubt if the video is still available.

Look if you are just going to accuse everyone of lying while never lifting a finger to do any research yourself, I have nothing further to say to you.

.

[On Guard for Thee]

It is not the "truth". Truth is based on facts that are objectively true. This is opinion. It is changing the meaning of a word in order to advance a political cause. That is pure propaganda.

The meaning of the word, in the eyes of the courts for starters, does not require killing.

[TimG]

The meaning of the word, in the eyes of the courts for starters, does not require killing.

You are making up stuff. The UN has an ambiguous definition that does not specifically require killing but no reasonable reader should infer that it is genocide if no actual killing of people because of their ethnicity is involved. All the UN definition does is imply that non-lethal actions in addition to killing exacerbate the crime.

Bottom line: Assimilation is NOT genocide. It happens all of the time and is generally a good thing. Forced assimilation is bad because it violates people's rights but violating rights is not genocide.

Look at Quebec's language laws. Under the ridiculous definition of genocide being pushed here these language laws can be called genocide which is obviously absurd. That is why changing the meaning of words for propaganda purposes is not helpful.

Edited June 14, 2015 by TimG

[Hal 9000]

I think by shouting down everybody who disagrees with her as being a racist, Jacee has come off the rails a little bit. I'm not a big fan of reporting, so, Ill also ask Jacee to please tone it down a bit.

[dre]

And ppl who are determined to keep them living on reservations, yet decry Israel as an apartheid state for having two tier social classes are hypocrites.

And your professor story is clearly just that...cite please.

Im not determined to keep them living on reservations. That choice is entirely up to them.

And only about 1/2 of Canadas native population lives on reserve anyways.

[dre]

You are making up stuff. The UN has an ambiguous definition that does not specifically require killing but no reasonable reader should infer that it is genocide if no actual killing of people because of their ethnicity is involved.

Bottom line: Assimilation is NOT genocide. It happens all of the time and is generally a good thing. Forced assimilation is bad because it violates people's rights but violating rights is not genocide.

Look at Quebec's language laws. Under the ridiculous definition of genocide being pushed here these language laws can be called genocide which is obviously absurd. That is why changing the meaning of words for propaganda purposes is not helpful.

Theres already 70 pages of this retarded argument. Just move on already.... Jesus.

[TimG]

Theres already 70 pages of this retarded argument. Just move on already.... Jesus.

Don't complain to me. I am not calling people racists if they don't agree with the use of the word. Moving on requires people 'agreeing to disagree'.

[On Guard for Thee]

You are making up stuff. The UN has an ambiguous definition that does not specifically require killing but no reasonable reader should infer that it is genocide if no actual killing of people because of their ethnicity is involved. All the UN definition does is imply that non-lethal actions in addition to killing exacerbate the crime.

Bottom line: Assimilation is NOT genocide. It happens all of the time and is generally a good thing. Forced assimilation is bad because it violates people's rights but violating rights is not genocide.

Look at Quebec's language laws. Under the ridiculous definition of genocide being pushed here these language laws can be called genocide which is obviously absurd. That is why changing the meaning of words for propaganda purposes is not helpful.

The UNs, (for one), language is quite clear that killing is NOT required to be deemed genocide.

[dre]

The UNs, (for one), language is quite clear that killing is NOT required to be deemed genocide.

A point thats already been brought up 50 times within the first few dozen pages of this topic.