DFCaper Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I am fairly pessimistic that any real changes will come out of this. getting the 630 "Nations" to agree is impossible, plus the non natives don't agree on a long term vision it seems. On most issues, I think Left and right have the same objectives, just different visions on how to get there... I feel Native culture needs to be embraced, but the people should be equal to other Canadians. As a dream of what the ideal set-up would be that both protects their culture and allow them to be equal, I would like to see the following: FN reserves become small municipalities. These municipalities are responsible for whatever is currently a responsibility of a municipal government in the rest of Canada. They can merge if they wish to to improve there economies of scale, but that would be up to them. Setting the boundaries for these new municipalities would be difficult. The Feds and the provinces would have the same rights and responsibilities they have now. Transfer responsibility for education to the province. The Feds are obviously terrible at it. Create a separate board for them as we have for the Catholics in Ontario, or French boards throughout Canada. It will be run by the FN, but responsible to maintain provincial standards. I think these type of changes would be palatable to the general population and would help achieve equal rights and protect their culture. The Feds would still need to have special programs to help the FN recover from where they are and to protect language. The status quo isn't working, but striving to make them the superior race, will be met with resistance, and continue with the current results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Because the laws and constitution of this country are guided by the people. At any point the people can decide new laws and new constitutions. So if enough people get pissed with the current regime then changes will happen Something just doesn't add up here. - the people will be pissed because the CBC will be rubbing native biases in everyone's noses - the people will demand change i.e. crack down on natives, scrap the CBC, outlaw unicorns etc etc because of this - the people the PEOPLE that is, will change our laws and our constitution...presumably the politicians and bureaucrats will just abandon nearly a century and a half of entrenched incrementalism, snap too it, and let the people do what they want when they want it... I'm also assuming that when folks say the CBC is in cahoots with natives, they mean to say the CBC is on their side and supports their aspirations so don't you think somewhere amongst all the natives and CBC staff and unicorn herders etc that it might not dawn on someone to do as you said, just keep quiet and work behind the scenes to effect change slowly so as to not spook the ah...immigrants? Further to that, I've been given to understand the CBC was so reviled and redundant that no one even watched it anymore, so how will enough Canadians even be aware of anything that makes them want to change everything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) I am fairly pessimistic that any real changes will come out of this. getting the 630 "Nations" to agree is impossible, plus the non natives don't agree on a long term vision it seems. On most issues, I think Left and right have the same objectives, just different visions on how to get there... I feel Native culture needs to be embraced, but the people should be equal to other Canadians. As a dream of what the ideal set-up would be that both protects their culture and allow them to be equal, I would like to see the following: FN reserves become small municipalities. These municipalities are responsible for whatever is currently a responsibility of a municipal government in the rest of Canada. They can merge if they wish to to improve there economies of scale, but that would be up to them. Setting the boundaries for these new municipalities would be difficult. The Feds and the provinces would have the same rights and responsibilities they have now. Where I live modern signed treaty lands are more on the scale of regional districts than municipalities, they're huge. I would suggest that when the dust settles after all the bands sign the treaties that are still being negotiated are concluded that half or more will be under their jurisdiction. Development of these lands will be subject to the same regulations governing things like the environment, water and land use practices etc. The main difference is that their local governments will need to be consulted in the event of any significant developments but they will not be required to consult our local governments when they develop theirs. I notice this wrinkled a few noses when it became apparent that local business' couldn't do much to prevent native business to operate on newly ceded lands that were seen to confer an advantage due to being on the highway into town instead of in town. Location location location as they say. It passed, the world hasn't fallen off it's hinges, life goes on. Pretty much every one who lives around here call the villages native people live in by their names now, hardly anyone refers to them as 'the reserve' anymore. People who live in them are or will soon be just as required to pay taxes, MSP etc as anyone anywhere else is. Transfer responsibility for education to the province. The Feds are obviously terrible at it. Create a separate board for them as we have for the Catholics in Ontario, or French boards throughout Canada. It will be run by the FN, but responsible to maintain provincial standards. All the kids around here are still going to the same schools on the same buses and boats. There are schools in villages in more remote areas but little has changed. There have been big changes to the fishery and even bigger changes to come. Less so in logging. In any case between these and other things treaty settlements are clearly the biggest economic driver we've seen in almost 20 years. One thing a lot of people don't seem to realize is that there is not a lot of capacity within native communities to perform much of the work that their economic and infrastructure development requires like engineers, equipment operators, accountants and even loggers and fishermen. This will certainly change and is slowly but it's patently clear how treaties will benefit everyone. But this is BC where virtually no treaties were made in the past. The modern treaties being negotiated here are things that the vast majority of bands across the rest of Canada can only dream about in the wake of some ancestor who was duped into signing away the heritage of thousands of future generations for a few barrels of molasses or cast iron frying pans. This is where I see some real problems if non-native government dig in their heels and say a deal is a deal. Too bad so sad just will not cut it. The status quo isn't working, but striving to make them the superior race, will be met with resistance, and continue with the current results. Who the heck ever suggested that? It sounds like all that's being suggested is that in the post reconciliation world they will constitute a 4th branch of government with more or less equal standing as the other three. I mean, how evil is that? Edited June 9, 2015 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I am fairly pessimistic that any real changes will come out of this. getting the 630 "Nations" to agree is impossible, plus the non natives don't agree on a long term vision it seems. On most issues, I think Left and right have the same objectives, just different visions on how to get there... I feel Native culture needs to be embraced, but the people should be equal to other Canadians. As a dream of what the ideal set-up would be that both protects their culture and allow them to be equal, I would like to see the following: FN reserves become small municipalities. These municipalities are responsible for whatever is currently a responsibility of a municipal government in the rest of Canada. They can merge if they wish to to improve there economies of scale, but that would be up to them. Setting the boundaries for these new municipalities would be difficult. The Feds and the provinces would have the same rights and responsibilities they have now. Transfer responsibility for education to the province. The Feds are obviously terrible at it. Create a separate board for them as we have for the Catholics in Ontario, or French boards throughout Canada. It will be run by the FN, but responsible to maintain provincial standards. I think these type of changes would be palatable to the general population and would help achieve equal rights and protect their culture. The Feds would still need to have special programs to help the FN recover from where they are and to protect language. The status quo isn't working, but striving to make them the superior race, will be met with resistance, and continue with the current results. These are changes that cannot be imposed on them, and would not be palatable to them. I think we Canadians should shut up about what we think they 'should' do. We've caused far too much damage that way already. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 These are changes that cannot be imposed on them, and would not be palatable to them. I think we Canadians should shut up about what we think they 'should' do. They're Canadians too. We're all in this together. It's time to end the apartheid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 They're Canadians too. We're all in this together. It's time to end the apartheid. Yes you're right they are. And people live where they choose. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Yes you're right they are. And people live where they choose. Yes, they do. It's time to leave that to the level of government that knows something about it - the provinces. Ottawa doesn't belong in the lives of aboriginal people in the way it is now, but, the Constitution demands it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Yes, they do. It's time to leave that to the level of government that knows something about it - the provinces. Ottawa doesn't belong in the lives of aboriginal people in the way it is now, but, the Constitution demands it.It's time to leave it up to people themselves to decide where they want to live. :/I expect Aboriginal Affairs will always be federal because the treaties are mostly federal or with the Queen, though there are some agreements with provinces too. Are you perhaps having recurring delusions of genocide? ... fantasizing about destruction of Aboriginal rights still? . Edited June 9, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 It's time to leave it up to people themselves to decide where they want to live. :/ I expect Aboriginal Affairs will always be federal because the treaties are mostly federal or with the Queen, though there are some agreements with provinces too. Are you perhaps having recurring delusions of genocide? ... fantasizing about destruction of Aboriginal rights still? . You're too busy accusing people of genocide to actually listen to what they're saying. Aboriginal people should be able to live and flourish the same as any other Canadians. They aren't farm animals. The level of government best suited to handle the local affairs file is the provincial. The Provinces have a Crown too, though, for this to work properly, the Crown would have to view aboriginals the same as everyone else. It's paternalistic attitudes like yours that keep aboriginal people in the past. I want them to be the same as everyone else, mostly because they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) You're too busy accusing people of genocide to actually listen to what they're saying. Aboriginal people should be able to live and flourish the same as any other Canadians. They aren't farm animals. The level of government best suited to handle the local affairs file is the provincial. The Provinces have a Crown too, though, for this to work properly, the Crown would have to view aboriginals the same as everyone else. It's paternalistic attitudes like yours that keep aboriginal people in the past. I want them to be the same as everyone else, mostly because they are. They will choose.And I doubt they care what you think should be imposed on them. It's just not your business and I don't know why you keep beating your head against this brick wall. . Edited June 9, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) They will choose. And I doubt they care what you think should be imposed on them. It's just not your business and I don't know why you keep beating your head against this brick wall. Hey, the status quo makes me lots of money. It's certainly not helping anyone else...oh, the chief, it's helping him. Perhaps some of us have actual human considerations? Feelings, and stuff. Or perhaps it's about fairness and doing what's right. I wouldn't expect you to understand. Edited June 9, 2015 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 You're too busy accusing people of genocide to actually listen to what they're saying. Aboriginal people should be able to live and flourish the same as any other Canadians. They aren't farm animals. The level of government best suited to handle the local affairs file is the provincial. The Provinces have a Crown too, though, for this to work properly, the Crown would have to view aboriginals the same as everyone else. It's paternalistic attitudes like yours that keep aboriginal people in the past. I want them to be the same as everyone else, mostly because they are. I want them to be the same as everyone else.....have you ever read 1984... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I want them to be the same as everyone else.....have you ever read 1984... I guess the rest of us are living in 1984? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 I guess the rest of us are living in 1984? Sounds like you may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Sounds like you may be. So you don't like living in an egalitarian democracy then? That explains a few things about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Hey, the status quo makes me lots of money. It's certainly not helping anyone else...oh, the chief, it's helping him. Perhaps some of us have actual human considerations? Feelings, and stuff. Or perhaps it's about fairness and doing what's right. I wouldn't expect you to understand. You think "human considerations ... fairness and doing what's right" means you telling other people how and where to live their lives? . Edited June 9, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 So you don't like living in an egalitarian democracy then? That explains a few things about you. I do actually. Apparently you dont really understand the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 So you don't like living in an egalitarian democracy then? That explains a few things about you.Ya you will have to move elsewhere for that.We respect three founding peoples here and each have some special considerations, laws, etc. The melting pot is just to the south. You are free to choose where you want to live. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 You think "human considerations ... fairness and doing what's right" means you telling other people how and where to live their lives? . I do actually. Apparently you dont really understand the word. It's clear that neither of you actually understand the concept. Aboriginal people are being held back by their different status. Many different groups make up Canada, but every other group is treated the same under the law. People who have faced oppression can come here and thrive...but overall, not aboriginals. There's a reason, and it's not because they're brown. Aboriginal people are subject to a different set of rules. They're segregated legally from the rest of us, and so even when they live with us, things are different. They've been taught to be victims of our pity. It needs to end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Ya you will have to move elsewhere for that. We respect three founding peoples here and each have some special considerations, laws, etc. The melting pot is just to the south. You are free to choose where you want to live. . Canada is a society that allows people to live where they want while treating them equally under the law. The special consideration that the French language and to a much lesser extent the Quebecois get is nothing like what separates aboriginal people from the rest of us. I would welcome a change to that regime protecting language and culture but making them equal in every other way. It would do a great deal to improve their lives in a generation or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 It's clear that neither of you actually understand the concept. Aboriginal people are being held back by their different status. Many different groups make up Canada, but every other group is treated the same under the law. People who have faced oppression can come here and thrive...but overall, not aboriginals. There's a reason, and it's not because they're brown. Aboriginal people are subject to a different set of rules. They're segregated legally from the rest of us, and so even when they live with us, things are different. They've been taught to be victims of our pity. It needs to end. And just how do you think they acquired that different status as you call it. The same discrimination that put them in residential schools still exists to this day. A good start on the road to egalitarian existence would be to honor at least some of the agreements we made with them years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 And just how do you think they acquired that different status as you call it. The same discrimination that put them in residential schools still exists to this day. Yes, and I'm calling for the end of it. You're calling for the strengthening of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 It's clear that neither of you actually understand the concept. Aboriginal people are being held back by their different status. None of your business. Their free choice. Many different groups make up Canada, but every other group is treated the same under the law.Quebecers have their own law - French Civil Code. People who have faced oppression can come here and thrive...but overall, not aboriginals. There's a reason, and it's not because they're brown. Aboriginal people are subject to a different set of rules. They're segregated legally from the rest of us, and so even when they live with us, things are different. They've been taught to be victims of our pity. It needs to end. Why should anyone live their life to please you? Their lives and choices are not your business. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) Yes, and I'm calling for the end of it.Yes and you're going to be eternally frustrated.Why do you beat your head against brick walls? Aboriginal rights are not going to 'go away' because you said so. They're not going to go away at all. . Edited June 9, 2015 by jacee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
On Guard for Thee Posted June 9, 2015 Report Share Posted June 9, 2015 Yes, and I'm calling for the end of it. You're calling for the strengthening of it. But you are attempting it through a concept of assimilation. Been tried, didnt work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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