Truth and Reconciliation... Legitimacy

[Michael Hardner]

Everything but the genocide.

Every day that's spent discussing the meaning of words is another day that help to those who need it are delayed. And as the politics goes on, the people continue to suffer.

[Michael Hardner]

...there isn't any constructive discussion about positive ways of moving forward to be had here.

.

I expect if you feel that way, you're not going to post in this thread moving forward at some point.

[jacee]

I'll be quite selective.

Every day that's spent discussing the meaning of words is another day that help to those who need it are delayed. And as the politics goes on, the people continue to suffer.

Oh for gods' sake, Michael. It's only been 24 hours!!

However, I am well aware of the past and all for moving forward constructively.

I think if we all accept Harper's acknowledgement that attempting to force cultural assimilation was 'wrong and has no place in this country' ... we can do so.

So ... the first principle in moving forward logically would be to support Indigenous cultures and rights.

.

Edited June 3, 2015 by jacee

[Je suis Omar]

Every day that's spent discussing the meaning of words is another day that help to those who need it are delayed. And as the politics goes on, the people continue to suffer.

It's really telling how you speak in such generalities about the serious issue of genocide, Michael. There has been no real discussion in all the years the T&RC has been going on, no reporting about the heart wrenching stories that resulted from a hundred year policy of genocide.

This is nothing more than a bunch of people, large, who refuse to face reality because it is too uncomfortable for them. It's endemic to western society (no you needn't attempt to go there).

[Accountability Now]

Understanding and accepting the past is necessary for moving forward.

However, most of the people responding in this thread (not you Michael) are and will remain adamantly opposed to both because of their own prejudices, so there isn't any constructive discussion about positive ways of moving forward to be had here.

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Complete and utter BS jacee. No one here discounts the historical facts and events. No one here discounts the horrendous nature of the outcomes of what was supposed to be education for the native people...a British education that they sought and won in treaties. No one here discounts that many children died and that cases of sexual, verbal and physical abuse happened.

What we are questioning and outright denying is that these items add up to genocide. Since we don't agree with you 100% then you make it that we don't agree at all. Your closed mind is the example of how the TRC has made this divisive and little will be accomplished

[Je suis Omar]

I expect if you feel that way, you're not going to post in this thread moving forward at some point.

These are the same tactics that have been employed in numerous other threads - "nothing of importance here, let's move on".

[Je suis Omar]

What we are questioning and outright denying is that these items add up to genocide. Since we don't agree with you 100% then you make it that we don't agree at all. Your closed mind is the example of how the TRC has made this divisive and little will be accomplished

What you are outright denying, in the face of overwhelming evidence, is the fact that the Canadian policy fits the international definition of genocide.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[Accountability Now]

What you are outright denying, in the face of overwhelming evidence, is the fact that the Canadian policy fits the international definition of genocide.

What you are ignoring is that the same group who wrote that definition has not called it genocide despite direct requests to do so.

[Je suis Omar]

What you are ignoring is that the same group who wrote that definition has not called it genocide despite direct requests to do so.

That in no way diminishes the fact that the Canadian policy matches the legal definition of genocide.

[Accountability Now]

That in no way diminishes the fact that the Canadian policy matches the legal definition of genocide.

According to you....not the UN

[Keepitsimple]

I think if we all accept Harper's acknowledgement that attempting to force cultural assimilation was 'wrong and has no place in this country' ... we can do so.

So ... the first principle in moving forward logically would be to support Indigenous cultures and rights.

.

We learn from History and plan for a better tomorrow - but it applies to both "sides". With over 600 Nations, what culture do you teach? No matter what the Government of the day does, the obstacle of Aboriginal government will exist until these "nations" gain some leadership that puts the archaic Bands and Chief system into some recognizable form. Structural, foundational change is screaming to be made. Can you imagine the power and influence of a single Aboriginal entity of a million of more people? There's so much government and annual resource money available that funding everything from Education to potable water. Speak with one voice - leave no nation behind. It should be this new entity that deals with the Attawaspikats. Canada has a lot to regret - a lot of shame to shoulder, regardless of the context of those times.....but it's long overdue for First Nations to unite and begin to help themselves. I want to see aboriginals succeed and thrive without losing their culture - I'm longing for it - but I've seen not one iota of leadership that would truly unite the 600 Nations. Without leadership and a leader on the Aboriginal side - how can Canadians get behind the changes that have to occur.

[Je suis Omar]

According to you....not the UN

Strongly influenced by the US, our IRS system was established in the mid-1880s and was conceived in partially benign terms: helping Aboriginal people better adapt to life in a Shognosh dominated country. Many treaties contained provisions for government funded on-reserve schools, and Aboriginal leaders like Chief Shingwauk intended for “teaching wigwams” to educate his people and prepare them for a better life. The early balance between Shognosh and Aboriginal worldviews gave way to a far more coercive system which entailed forced assimilation and cultural destruction.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/31790474/Colonial_Genocide_-_IRS_Chapter_-_D4_January_2013-8.docx?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1433349225&Signature=4ctD4Cug8ACgM4thBbcDpDJJ46U%3D

[Je suis Omar]

KIS: We learn from History and plan for a better tomorrow ... .

-----------

There can be no learning from history when people are so ignorant about that history.

There can be no learning from history when there are many who distort it and couch it in sanitized terms just so they don't have to face it.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[jacee]

It's really telling how you speak in such generalities about the serious issue of genocide, Michael. There has been no real discussion in all the years the T&RC has been going on, no reporting about the heart wrenching stories that resulted from a hundred year policy of genocide.

This is nothing more than a bunch of people, large, who refuse to face reality because it is too uncomfortable for them. It's endemic to western society (no you needn't attempt to go there).

Don't judge the responses of most Canadians by the people responding in this thread, Omar.

They represent only a small extremist group with specific entrenched prejudices.

.

[Accountability Now]

According to you....not the UN

Strongly influenced by the US, our IRS system was established in the mid-1880s and was conceived in partially benign terms: helping Aboriginal people better adapt to life in a Shognosh dominated country. Many treaties contained provisions for government funded on-reserve schools, and Aboriginal leaders like Chief Shingwauk intended for teaching wigwams to educate his people and prepare them for a better life. The early balance between Shognosh and Aboriginal worldviews gave way to a far more coercive system which entailed forced assimilation and cultural destruction.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/31790474/Colonial_Genocide_-_IRS_Chapter_-_D4_January_2013-8.docx?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ56TQJRTWSMTNPEA&Expires=1433349225&Signature=4ctD4Cug8ACgM4thBbcDpDJJ46U%3D

Lol. How exactly does this prove genocide?

[Je suis Omar]

Lol. How exactly does this prove genocide?

How old are you?

[Scott Mayers]

It seems like as always...money is the answer. As per your Globe and Mail article, Perry Bellegarde says the following:

Its hard to take them serious about truth and reconciliation when it really sounds like its just a cash call. I will say this, I agree that a significant cash transfer should be involved however not just a hand out. It should be a one time settlement that will buyout all the land from the reserves from each person living on the reserves. At that point they can join the rest of Canadian society and really turn the next chapter. Not only will they have cash in hand to do so, but also it will be reversing the apartheid nature of reserves that many are claiming caused many issues back in the day. If they want, they can even stay on the reserves and own their own property thus forming a municipality subject to the same taxation and laws as the rest of Canada. We could finally put this apartheid behind us.

Of course....that's not what they want. They want to be separate. They want to be seen as their own nation equal to Canada. That is the truth.

And to Eyeball's response. (I am catching up on what I missed so this may have been answered. Also I haven't figured out quoting from different posts yet so the following is a paraphrase.)

Some may think that it is a good thing that people gain a segregated pride in their genetic and ancestral inheritance. The trouble there is that history has proven that in time, 'aboriginal' populations that believe in such pride (nationalism) leads to a hatred of those outside of their group. And if they are also economically depressed, this acts as an impetus to serious latter conflicts. Note that most wars related conflicts of these natures. Nazis believed they were fighting for their 'aboriginal' rights against the foreigners (Jews mainly). Here, this can and will occur if we continue fostering cultural inheritance beliefs within politics (Multiculturalism [T]). I also see the Middle East as repeating this and the sole cause of conflicts today.

Personally, we need to separate religion (including the cultural, ethnic, genetic beliefs connected to them) from law making. But this isn't likely going to happen without major restructuring of our constitution and institutes.

Edits: spelling.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Scott Mayers

[Je suis Omar]

Don't judge the responses of most Canadians by the people responding in this thread, Omar.

They represent only a small extremist group with specific entrenched prejudices.

While I agree that we are seeing an extremist fringe here in this thread, Jacee, and I acknowledge that there are concerned Canadians, I think it a stretch to suggest that, at this point in time, that means 'most'. I certainly hope and pray that it ends up at 'most'.

Where are all the MLW folk that fall into the most group?

Edited June 3, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[eyeball]

ROTFL. Are you serious? The entire constitution can be torn up and be re-written if there is a strong democratic mandate supporting it. The idea that the democratic will of Canadians could be usurped a small group of wannabe feudal lords is laughable. The only rights that natives have are those which the majority chooses to let them have. Nothing will ever change that.

That's probably what people thought when the 1st First Nation started reasserting their rights through our legal system.

Native governments will want to discuss terms of our country's re-constitution with our government. In our case that will be whoever's sitting in Buckingham Palace...as royal subjects it will be our duty and place to accept whatever she/he decrees. After everything is negotiated there will be some sort Royal Dissolution - a moment of constitutional limbo - followed by the implementation of our new Constitution handed down from on high like the first one only this time with all the t's and i's properly crossed and dotted.

Basically our system of governance just downloads a bunch of new updates, reboots and carry's on. I doubt most Canadians will even notice.

[Je suis Omar]

And to Eyeball's response. (I am catching up on what I missed so this may have been answered. Also I haven't figured out quoting from different posts yet so the following is a paraphrase.)

Edits: spelling.

You should ask for some help in this regard, Scott, because you have Accountability Now saying that Perry Bellegarde is saying some awful things when it is AN that is responsible for that.

[jacee]

Complete and utter BS jacee. No one here discounts the historical facts and events. No one here discounts the horrendous nature of the outcomes of what was supposed to be education for the native people...a British education that they sought and won in treaties. No one here discounts that many children died and that cases of sexual, verbal and physical abuse happened.

What we are questioning and outright denying is that these items add up to genocide. Since we don't agree with you 100% then you make it that we don't agree at all. Your closed mind is the example of how the TRC has made this divisive and little will be accomplished

The TRC report and recommendations are the issue under discussion.

There is plenty of evidence of genocidal intent in the statements of policy leaders at the time, and genocide is about intent - ie, the destruction of Aboriginal Peoples and their rights "as such".

The report and recs are huge and thus very hard to discuss.

Perhaps it's more feasible to consider the Principles underlying them:

Principles_2015_05_31_web_o.pdf

Principles of Reconciliation

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada believes that in order for Canada

to flourish in the twenty-first century, reconciliation between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Canada must be based on the following principles.

1

The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples

is the framework for reconciliation at all levels and across all sectors

of Canadian society.

2

First Nations, Inuit, and Métis peoples, as the original peoples of

this country and as self-determining peoples, have Treaty, consti-

tutional, and human rights that must be recognized and respected.

3

Reconciliation is a process of healing of relationships that requires

public truth sharing, apology, and commemoration that acknowl-

edge and redress past harms.

4

Reconciliation requires constructive action on addressing the

ongoing legacies of colonialism that have had destructive impacts

on Aboriginal peoples education, cultures and languages, health,

child welfare, the administration of justice, and economic opportu-

nities and prosperity.

5

Reconciliation must create a more equitable and inclusive society

by closing the gaps in social, health, and economic outcomes that

exist between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Canadians.

6

All Canadians, as Treaty peoples, share responsibility for establish-

ing and maintaining mutually respectful relationships.

7

The perspectives and understandings of Aboriginal Elders and

Traditional Knowledge Keepers of the ethics, concepts, and prac-

tices of reconciliation are vital to long-term reconciliation.

8

Supporting Aboriginal peoples cultural revitalization and inte-

grating Indigenous knowledge systems, oral histories, laws, pro-

tocols, and connections to the land into the reconciliation process

are essential.

9

Reconciliation requires political will, joint leadership, trust build-

ing, accountability, and transparency, as well as a substantial

investment of resources.

10

Reconciliation requires sustained public education and dialogue,

including youth engagement, about the history and legacy of res-

idential schools, Treaties, and Aboriginal rights, as well as the his-

torical and contemporary contributions of Aboriginal peoples to

Canadian society.

.

Edited June 3, 2015 by jacee

[eyeball]

One question I have on this. Why is it that when ever there is a land claim or other treaty issue, the natives complain to the Queen. But for the residential schools issue which is also a function of treaties is the Canadian government. Should the Brits not be sued as well?

I suppose they should, assuming our government can successfully plead it was just following orders and it had no choice - you see a lot of people often claiming similar under other circumstances so maybe it'll fly in this case.

[TimG]

That's probably what people thought when the 1st First Nation started reasserting their rights through our legal system.

The rules of the legal system can be changed at any time by the democratic majority. Obviously getting consensus on any change is difficult so the status quo has a lot of power but that does not mean the ability to change the system does not exist.

As for your nonsensical ramblings on the Queen: she can be booted out as the head of state at anytime. In fact, the constitution has an explicit provision that says she cannot block an amendment that boots her out.

[On Guard for Thee]

According to you....not the UN

According to the UN as well I'm afraid.

[Je suis Omar]

Deleted.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Je suis Omar