USA supporting Israeli terrorism

[Scott Mayers]

I believe that you are holding Israel to a standard that even Canada, the U.S., and many other nations do not meet and have never met. Israel is a liberal democracy with a diverse population and political groups. Israel will act in nation state self interest regardless of international recrimination or judgement, just as Canada or the U.S. has done.

Israel faces existential threats to its existence from regional actors....Canada does not, but Canada's CF-18's bomb the locals in Iraq and Syria from far across the sea.

I would also point out that Canada has embraced language and cultural discrimination in the case of Quebec as a matter of provincial and federal law.

I'm an "equal opportunity" cynic and skeptic against anyone, including myself. Once you get to know me you'll see what I mean. But as to this topic, Israel represents a severely unfair country and should never have been granted 'existence' in our day. While I am non-religious and quite nihilistic, I could overlook this in the sense that I don't believe in any actual moral right (or wrong) to nature. But I find hypocrisy of those who DO claim moral uprighteousness as rational causes of their acts necessary to be questioned if the goal of finding prosperity for all or most is at issue.

Israel is the major cause of Middle Eastern (and world) conflict. Whether you doubt this or not, this IS the impression of the Muslims of the Middle East and the more universal perception of this (true or not) is sufficient enough to justify their acts of war. I assure you that if they (Muslims) had the military and financial powers of the Israelis, they wouldn't opt for the extreme acts we refer to as "terrorism". Personally, the way Israel acts is a form of slow torture as they trap and starve the Palestinians.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm an "equal opportunity" cynic and skeptic against anyone, including myself. Once you get to know me you'll see what I mean. But as to this topic, Israel represents a severely unfair country and should never have been granted 'existence' in our day. While I am non-religious and quite nihilistic, I could overlook this in the sense that I don't believe in any actual moral right (or wrong) to nature. But I find hypocrisy of those who DO claim moral uprighteousness as rational causes of their acts necessary to be questioned if the goal of finding prosperity for all or most is at issue.

The goal is not finding prosperity for all. Look around the world and tell me why Israel is the only bad guy in that respect. As for "existence", Israel has more international legitimacy than Canada or the united States. It doesn't need anybody's permission to exist. The same British Empire that screwed up the MidEast with France also spawned Canada.

Israel is the major cause of Middle Eastern (and world) conflict. Whether you doubt this or not, this IS the impression of the Muslims of the Middle East and the more universal perception of this (true or not) is sufficient enough to justify their acts of war. I assure you that if they (Muslims) had the military and financial powers of the Israelis, they wouldn't opt for the extreme acts we refer to as "terrorism". Personally, the way Israel acts is a form of slow torture as they trap and starve the Palestinians.

This assertion is most certainly not true. Your own nation has bombed and tortured "Muslims" and others without being threatened to anywhere near the degree as has Israel. Personally, Canada acts in a form of fast torture behind the U.S. and NATO to further its own nation state objectives far across the sea, unlike Israel.

Edited June 4, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

No "permission"? It's existence was based significantly on both direct and indirect supports of other countries in an unusually extreme way. The British irresponsibly handed off their occupation in Palestine to Jews in a synchronous discriminatory way against those already settled there. And if you think the Israelis should NOT be apologetic for their thefts and other crimes in the name of 'war', then why in hell should anyone disagreeing? So we should simply be ignoring the disputes in the Middle East without prejudice. That is, you can't assert Israel as being just in stealing the land as an act of 'war' but dismiss the Muslims as "terrorists" should they do what it takes to take back what was more recently theirs.

I already disagree with my own country to be acting in certain ways. But your concern about my country in comparison is just a diversion (Tu quoque fallacy in classic rhetoric). What intrinsic 'right' does Israel have over other people to be allowed to barricade a subgroup of humans with walls, bulldoze and build over occupied homes, and arrogantly built whole communities on disputed territories? I'm the nihilist here. So please tell me why you believe Israel's existence is fair in light of your own sense of morals?

[bush_cheney2004]

No "permission"? It's existence was based significantly on both direct and indirect supports of other countries in an unusually extreme way.

Nope...Israel's independence was born from force and determination despite the indirect supports and screw-ups by the British Empire.

No Crown permission required or intended...see "American Revolution".

I already disagree with my own country to be acting in certain ways. But your concern about my country in comparison is just a diversion (Tu quoque fallacy in classic rhetoric). What intrinsic 'right' does Israel have over other people to be allowed to barricade a subgroup of humans with walls, bulldoze and build over occupied homes, and arrogantly built whole communities on disputed territories? I'm the nihilist here. So please tell me why you believe Israel's existence is fair in light of your own sense of morals?

My perspective is completely amoral....just as Canada and the U.S. conquered and subjugated native peoples for existence and expansion, so shall Israel. Israel's enemies aided these objectives by rejecting peaceful compromise and starting wars...losing each time.

Your country is bombing Muslims right now far across the sea.....why ? What you say about your country's policies means far less than what those policies actually are...same as in Israel.

Edited June 4, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Scott Mayers]

Nope...Israel's independence was born from force and determination despite the indirect supports and screw-ups by the British Empire.

No Crown permission required or intended...see "American Revolution".

My perspective is completely amoral....just as Canada and the U.S. conquered and subjugated native peoples for existence and expansion, so shall Israel. Israel's enemies aided these objectives by rejecting peaceful compromise and starting wars...losing each time.

Your country is bombing Muslims right now far across the sea.....why ? What you say about your country's policies means far less than what those policies actually are...same as in Israel.

You're saying that if the British didn't war on Turkey (Lawrence of Arabia related?), the Jews would have still succeeded in taking over Palestine? That if it wasn't for Nazi Germany and the world 'feeling sorry' for a people victimized they didn't personally want to accept as immigrants but would look away as Zionists walk into Palestine to take over?

Like I said, I think it is about hypocritical actions that I'm concerned about here. How can others sympathize with a people who insist on reminding us of the horrors of the Holocaust and then turn around and behave in a similar and worse manner towards the Palestinians?

P.S. Does anybody other than myself recognize that the original 'promised land' was NOT Palestine, but rather Egypt?

[bush_cheney2004]

You're saying that if the British didn't war on Turkey (Lawrence of Arabia related?), the Jews would have still succeeded in taking over Palestine? That if it wasn't for Nazi Germany and the world 'feeling sorry' for a people victimized they didn't personally want to accept as immigrants but would look away as Zionists walk into Palestine to take over?

There was already civil war and sectarian strife in the region before the British mandate expired. The Zionists just seized upon the opportunity to declare independence and the resulting war sealed the deal. The State of Israel was subsequently recognized by other nations. Hell, Canadian citizens were still British subjects until 1947.

Like I said, I think it is about hypocritical actions that I'm concerned about here. How can others sympathize with a people who insist on reminding us of the horrors of the Holocaust and then turn around and behave in a similar and worse manner towards the Palestinians?

It's easy...just ignore all the hypocritical crap and observe the actions of all involved, for over a century. The Palestinians had many opportunities to settle land disputes and the occupation, but chose to get stupid instead. Gaza wasn't even occupied when the latest round of terror attacks were started. Mess with the bull...get the horns.

Canada bombs people far across the sea for "human rights" and the "Responsibility to Protect". It's the same game....

[Shady]

How can others sympathize with a people who insist on reminding us of the horrors of the Holocaust and then turn around and behave in a similar and worse manner towards the Palestinians?

Sorry but you lose people when you talk in such a hyperbolic manner. Worse than the Holocaust? Come'on man, you're talking like a crazy person.

[Je suis Omar]

Sorry but you lose people when you talk in such a hyperbolic manner. Worse than the Holocaust? Come'on man, you're talking like a crazy person.

Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity, so in the sense that Israel continues to perpetuate these crimes over a much longer period of time, then yes, they are worse than the Holocaust.

[bush_cheney2004]

Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity, so in the sense that Israel continues to perpetuate these crimes over a much longer period of time, then yes, they are worse than the Holocaust.

I agree...time to increase military aid to Israel so they can finish these "crimes" much more quickly...in a shorter period of time. The meter is running !

[PIK]

And Israel being the only safe place to live over there, but yet they receive all the criticism. If the arabs had taken control of that land ,they would still be doing the same crap over and over. It would not be what it is today but it would be another place full of people with nothing. Some day people will realize the Arabs do not want peace or even a independent palatine, they just want to kill jews.

[Je suis Omar]

Israel is engaged in a new Holocaust, one that they continue to drags out over time. Of course one cannot overlook the support and assistance given them by self righteous western nations.

Myth #1: The Oslo Accords Committed Israel to Stop Colonizing Palestinian Land

The Oslo Accords gave the interim governing Palestinian body, the Palestinian Authority (PA), no jurisdiction over the illegal settlements established by Israel in occupied Palestinian territories. In fact, under Oslo, Israel retained sole discretion to expropriate additional Palestinian land for settlements and other purposes such as military firing ranges.

Under the cover of on-again, off-again negotiations, Israel actually engaged in an unprecedented drive to widen and deepen its colonization of Palestinian territory. The number of Israeli settlements has increased from about 280,000 in 1993 to nearly 550,000 today. Although this colonization of Palestinian land may have violated the spirit of the peace process, it most certainly did not contradict its letter, underscoring how the Oslo Accords were designed to entrench Israels occupation and colonization of Palestinian land, rather than end it.

At no point during the apex of peace process negotiations, conducted under the aegis of the Clinton administration, did the United States insist on Israel publicly committing to stop colonizing Palestinian land. Only after the calamitous breakdown of the peace process after the botched 2000 Camp David summit did the United States insist in the Mitchell Report (2001), the Road Map (2003) and the Annapolis Peace Conference (2007)that Israel halt settlement construction to get the peace process back on track. Yet despite the lip service paid to this principle by the Bush and Obama administrations, the United States has consistently stood idly by as Israeli colonization continued. Since the United States reconvened negotiations in July, Israel has approved thousands of new settlement units.

Myth #2: The Oslo Accords Heralded the Establishment of a Palestinian State

U.S. officials today seize every opportunity to declare that Israeli-Palestinian negotiations should and will lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state, which might lead one to imagine that this was the intended outcome of the Oslo process. However, one searches in vain for any mention of Palestinian statehood in the Oslo Accords. In fact, Rabin strenuously opposed a Palestinian state until his dying day.

Rather than promise eventual statehood, Israel designed the Oslo Accords to afford Palestinians in the occupied territories a severely circumscribed form of autonomy exercised under the heavy hand of perpetual Israeli dominance. In essence, the Oslo Accords were a neat repackaging of the stale and rejected plans for Palestinian autonomy outlined in the 1978 Egyptian-Israeli Camp David Accords. That former scheme came to naught after Israel failed to identify any representative Palestinians willing to implement it; in the 1990s, however, the PLO obliged.

http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/five_myths_about_the_israeli_palestinian_peace_process

Edited June 12, 2015 by Je suis Omar

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel is engaged in a new Holocaust, one that they continue to drags out over time. Of course one cannot overlook the support and assistance given them by self righteous western nations.

How alarming...we need faster "Holocausts"? Look how long Canada has dragged things out based on the TRC reports of "genocide".

Edited June 12, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Shady]

Crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity, so in the sense that Israel continues to perpetuate these crimes over a much longer period of time, then yes, they are worse than the Holocaust.

Hyperbole is hyperbole.

[Je suis Omar]

Facts are facts.

Israel and the USA are doing all they can to perpetuate genocide. That's nothing new for the USA as genocide is official USA policy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Facts are facts.

Israel and the USA are doing all they can to perpetuate genocide. That's nothing new for the USA as genocide is official USA policy.

OK...apparently genocide has been official policy in Canada for a long time as well. Nothing new....

[Scott Mayers]

Hyperbole is hyperbole.

Hyperbole is a functional use of rhetoric to add emphasis to an argument. It is NOT a fallacy of argument unless that is all that is being used without any true substance. Since most people are more affected by emotions and preferentially ignore sincere logic, rhetorical devices become necessary.

As to the topic, the argument against the Zionist's position is about the fact that the State of Israel acts in ways against a whole class of people -- the original Palestinian and particularly Muslim residents -- by ghettoizing them ("refugee camps"), using walls to both barricade and hide them from Israelis as well as preventing them from naturally being able to compete fairly to earn an economy, and bullying them using these capacities along with their extraordinary military powers (Israel as a Goliath against the Muslims).

Many interpret the desperate acts of war/fighting of the Muslims as "terrorism" merely on the basis that they use methods that literally affect the general population of the dominant sides with overt disgust (suicide bombings, unpredictable random attacks, and the blood-and-gut appearances of such attacks, etc.). But what gets missed is how NEGLECT-type acts bear the vast majority of abuses and actually have far stronger impact, force, and harm against others that cause worse suffering than much of the direct overt forms of abuse. The Palestinian Muslims are virtually imprisoned by the Israelis (among others) and being purposely cornered and starved in an attempt to destroy them.

So, to use the supposed "hyperbole" of comparison of Israeli to Nazis is even more fair and appropriate than the reverse. While the Holocaust was horrific, the act was identical in goals to the present Israelis against the PRESENT population of trapped Palestinian Muslims; But worse, the Nazis opted to use tactics that attempted to destroy their enemy in a way that was both obvious to their hatred (honest) as well as in ways that was direct and quick; In contrast, the PRESENT Israelis are acting in ways that attempt to both hide their hatred (dishonesty) as well as act in ways that cause the neglectful and more torturous suffering against their enemy.

You cannot corner a starving dog and expect it not to both bite AND act with more unusual volition and apparent violence. This is what explains the acts of "terrorism" and actually justifies them. This does NOT mean that Muslims are any more fair moralistically under equal conditions. And while I might actually prefer the cultural aspects of the Jews over the Muslims, to the case of Israel, the Zionists here are being the more sincere "terrorists". They just have the support, position, and capacity to cleverly hide this with great effectiveness.

[jbg]

And Israel being the only safe place to live over there, but yet they receive all the criticism. If the arabs had taken control of that land ,they would still be doing the same crap over and over. It would not be what it is today but it would be another place full of people with nothing. Some day people will realize the Arabs do not want peace or even a independent palatine, they just want to kill jews.

To be fair they don't stop with Jews. Look at Yemen and KSA. And SIS v. Kurds, Christians, Yadzidis. They get a sexual thrill out of killing. Edited July 4, 2015 by jbg

[jbg]

So what is Israel's solution?

I'm not seeing any commitment to a peace that makes it possible for Palestine to function autonomously.

I don't believe there is one.

.

Should be the same solution as the U.S. and Canada. A genuine commitment to peace, and not merely preparing for the next war. On the part of the Arabs as well as the Jews.

Edited July 4, 2015 by jbg

[jbg]

What does Israel have for an economy? I ask this since it is one of the world's most powerful country's and yet they appear to have no mineral resources, no manufacturing, nor a sufficiently reasonable place for tourism (due to the ever-constant state of fear and war.)

Mineral resources-Golda Meyer once joked that G-d selected for the land promised to the Jews the only part of the Middle East without oil. Normally this should make you happy. But Israel has now discovered massive oil and gas reserves off the coast and is developing some of it.

Manufacturing-

"Technological advancement" isn't something unique to a given people as it can be earned anywhere given the luxury to invest in.

I was asking of what their physical resources are, what "native" (home industry, not simply ownership internationally) manufacturing, tertiary services (communications/transport), etc.

Dead wrong! Israel is one of the world’s leading development center for high technology. Both the Jewish family structure and promotion of education, as well as open system prompt such developments. An excellent book to read is Start-Up Nation. As soon as Israel began adopting market-oriented policies hi-tech development literally exploded. In short Israel punches far above its weight in the world economy.

Tourism-You’ve got to be kidding. People flock to Israel to see a miraculous ancient land revived. While in surrounding territories the people are playing out their blood-lusts and fantasies (think ISIS v. Kurds, or KSA v. Yemen) Israel has developed a thriving country, mixing ancient sites with modernity. Masada is but one.

I am reasonably guessing that the State of Israel is merely a platform for what some subset of Jews believes is their supremacy to a God….. Also, it is clear that the Christian world supports it in an odd temporary 'friendship' to assure their prophesy of the end comes true. But there are many Jews who do NOT favor this religious and pious mentality.

I ask in my own rhetorical way here because I see the State of Israel as merely functioning as a base of its own racist and discriminatory policies and IS the impetus of continued world-related problems. [i am hoping that the Israeli children grow up to rebel against this in time but at present, the old stereotype guards are running things.] And they ARE the (significant) cause of all Middle-Eastern conflict.

As such, this 'State' appears merely as a type of conspiratorial collaboration of mixed interests. Is this ALL that Israel's economy is based on or do they have something else to support them realistically?

Did you lift this out of Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Normally I wouldn’t dignify this with an answer. Zionism indeed got off to a slow start. But during the early 20th century a worldwide drive to self-determination by discrete groups grew and proved unstoppable. The Poles demanded and received the reconstitution of their state, once shredded by the Prussian Empire and the Russian Empire. Czechoslovakia was hived out of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, as well as Finland, were created for their respective nationalities. And the Balkans were reconstituted as Yugoslavia from the ruins of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Well, maybe that didn’t work out so well.

The Zionist movement followed these developments in the path of national self-determination. This was further fueled by WW II and the Shoah. Such Jews as survived the concentration camps couldn’t realistically return to houses and businesses that were stolen from them, and in some cases wrecked. This, combined with Britain being effectively bankrupted by WW II and thus unable to continue the mandate, led to the establishment of the State of Israel.

As for the non-supporting Jews I cannot speak to their agenda. I suppose they’re free to live anywhere they feel safe. I do not want to be rescuing them when France inevitably again becomes hostile to the Jews. As if that hasn’t happened with the Charlie Hebdo and Hyper Kosher massacres.

I wouldn't completely blame the U.S., however, for their support or non-supports (for those that do not) of Israel as these are about politics external to what people feel they can control. While it might be undesirable to favor or penalize other nations, it is necessary to deal with particular issues at hand separately and distinctly since they are not privilege to their people's rights or governments in practice.

The U.S. has two major interests: 1) Israel is a giant forward base in the likely event that the region needs to be pacified. Think Normandy without the invasion; and 2) Israel is the only stable democracy in the Middle East.

eds to be pacified. Think Normandy without the invasion; and 2) Israel is the only stable democracy in the Middle East.

As to the topic, the argument against the Zionist's position is about the fact that the State of Israel acts in ways against a whole class of people -- the original Palestinian and particularly Muslim residents -- by ghettoizing them ("refugee camps"), using walls to both barricade and hide them from Israelis as well as preventing them from naturally being able to compete fairly to earn an economy, and bullying them using these capacities along with their extraordinary military powers (Israel as a Goliath against the Muslims).

I am not going to respond to the entire post but this one is a wopper.

It was the Arabs and United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNWRA) kept them in camps. The reason why UNWRA was kept separate from other U.N. refugee relief was that all other refugee groups were resettled; the Arabs were kept penned to create a pot to stir.

Edited July 4, 2015 by jbg

[Scott Mayers]

I just watched a good doc on the 1913 origins of the conflict when a Zionist movement was set up in Palestine. What is interesting to note is how these communities (1) purchased supposed lands from absentee landlords, and (2) how they functioned in absolute discrimination which denied any non-Jews to work on their establishing farms and communities.

(1) I have trouble with the concept of how ownerships are derived in the first place anywhere. In particular, I don't believe that absolute powers of property (land, real estate) should exist as people are born into this world without inherent rights to such property are considered alien and when the property they were born and live upon are owned up, they are subject automatically to being surfs or slaves who must be forced to accept their reality....or require fighting to survive. The lands sold were unfairly negotiated. Also, today we have an understanding that should people declare ownership of land/real-extate, it also requires them to be subject to be responsible to that land including the people there. Thus, such sales of lands to which these people were native to were disrespected as they were not compensated in kind AND had no negotiating rights. So these sales are illegitimate, ...on a moral basis at the minimal.

(2) The addition of denying the local non-Jewish community demonstrated their clear Nationalism and the absence of not taking responsibility to the community/country as a whole, their Jew-only socialist concerns means they were the original National Socialists. It is this reason which causes any reasonable distaste for the Jewish community and they 'own' any outsiders disgust. It's hypocritical to expect the deals made within the laws of the land to which they depended on to purchase (that is, even the simple 'right' to purchase) and then act to segregate themselves from that country's loyalty as a community as a whole through their discrimination against all non-Jews. It is no wonder that a Hitler would come along later to attempt to adapt the same formula he perceived granted such upon such Jewish-segregated societies!

And no, I don't borrow anything philosophically from any other groups or organizations. (...Protocols of Zion) I am anti-nationalist period, and especially when such groups hold a 'patriotism' for an "us" which necessitates a complementary "them" to which when strengthened assures they have a hatred of what is NOT themselves. The act of special favoritism always implies at least a NEGLECT of others. And such neglects where some subset of others are dependent upon the same limited resource (as in lands, here) this neglect is an act of abuse against that part of "them". So even if one may not officially appear to be directly harming some group, the shared dependencies to survival makes the neglectors acting with a hidden but real form of terrorism. The neglected end up starving for lack of necessities of survival and thus are cornered like a wild starving animal. So it is no wonder that you also get acts by these neglected people to which both enhances their own nationalism as well as to do unusually desperate reflective acts of violence!

I don't 'favor' the Muslim community over the Jewish (Zionists) and favor much of the culture of the Jews as my own personal preference. But these are irrelevant. I favor myself but non-hypocritically also would NOT believe in creating my own group that takes away other's own group or individual rights or presence, especially if we both rely on the IDENTICAL resources.

Like I pointed out, Islamic Nationalism is a direct result of Jewish Nationalism. Only if they shared their resources would they even have a chance to diminish such extreme behaviors that both groups disagree of the other. And now it might be too late. It would require abolishing the extremes within BOTH groups.

NOTE TO SITE: I tried using the letter 'b' using a '(' before and a ')' after that causes that smiley face above. Is there a way to fix that?

EDIT: changed the (a) to (1) and ( to (2)

Edited July 4, 2015 by Scott Mayers