Blackwater training Canadians troops?

[Topaz]

What exactly is this war crime organization training our troops???? Where is Harper getting the money to pay for this because Black water does not come cheap... it would be in the millions of dollars! http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=414820f7-998a-496f-b41d-c033e5d6d168

[Derek 2.0]

From the OP:

U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates said Wednesday he has sent a team to Iraq to investigate whether there is enough oversight of the private soldiers employed by firms such as Blackwater.

Still, Dawn Black, the NDP’s defence critic, questioned the need for Blackwater to be involved in training Canadian troops.

Minister of Public Safety Stockwell Day, when asked whether the training in Blackwater is appropriate, defended the Forces.

How old is this story????

[Michael Hardner]

How old is this story????

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/08/blackwater-training-canad_n_1333047.html?

I'm guessing 3 or so years.

[Rue]

It was done early on in when Canada first entered Afghanistan no one knows how long it went on for.It was all kept hush hush.

Smallc are they the best at what they do? I actually respectfully disagree. There are not better than British, Israeli, German, Australian and other American firms let alone some of our own Canadian firms.

Smallc I hate Blackwater and I tell you why.

I think they are cowboys who over-rely on technology, demonstrate sheer incompetence when it comes to managing cross cultural gender, language and human behaviour issues in the nations they come into and reflect everything the US Armed Forces rejected which is why they started their own security service. They rejected conventional military training and operate outside the law.

They are not and will never be soldiers. They operate outside the law and have no ethical code.

They over charge, are unaccountable and operate no differently than the very terrorists we are fighting breaking international and domestic laws.

A soldier should not learn from a mercenary. That flies in the face of military honour and tradition.

I am very pro military training and anti mercernary private firm involvement.

That said, its a reminder of the corrupt ties between Haliburton-Blackwater and their executives Rumsfeld and Chaney and how they procured huge contracts and showed contempt for the existing expertise of the US Armed Forces.

Canada needed no lessons from them.

This started because the US regular army was recruiting high school drop outs and young men with low iq's and it was felt the average US soldier was of limited ability.

This premises which then led to rationalizing to contracting out was full of flaws and false assumptions as to the competency of the US ground soldier who proved under fire and in civilian interaction to be better than Blackwater mercenaries and for the most part damn good under the impossible situations they were given. US soldiers were placed in harms way and in impossible situations while Blackwater did the cushy stuff. To hell with them. They were overpriced mercenaries, no more,no less.

The Canadian Armed forces by the way placed its soldiers to live in villages with citizens in Afghanistan which flied in the face of what Blackwater advised them not to do and it cut down on terrorist attacks.

Canadian soldiers needed no lessons from these sob's. I also prefer British, Australian, German or Israeli state of the art counter-terrorist approaches in civilian areas or the US Armed forces model for civilian interaction in Djibouti which is similar to the Candian approach used in Afghanistan..

None of them takes a back seat to Blackwater

Australia actually showed superior techniques when it had to go into East Timor. It was one of the most efficient civilian interventions in military history in the last 50 years and the press barely noticed what they did. No Blackwater cowboy can touch them.

As for Canada, its soldiers never needed training in how to interact with civilian terrorists. The fiasco in Africa with Romeo Dallaires changed the psyche of the Canadian Armed forces in a way Blackwater will never understand.

One of the very reasons Western nations prefer to use jet fighters and stay off the ground is because the have learned conventional soldiers will not if asked to remain in contact with any civilian population for an extended time period do well. The longer a conventional army is used as an occupation force, the more likely resistance to it comes about in the form of terrorism.

Blackwater was created as a terror unit realizing this and to operate above domestic laws and not have to be accountable like conventional soldiers for any mistakes with civilians.

Blackwater's m.o.was to swarm in with men in blue dripping with weapons, masks and intimidation killing, beating, showing brute force and then leaving as quickly as it came in a pile of dust never making eye contact or interacting with civilians.

All it is, is another verion of the Tos Tons Macouts, a pathetic bunch of hired thugs Pa Doc Jean Claude DeVallieres used when he was dictator of Haiti.

Stormtroopers. SA the Nazis used to call them.

A soldier walks in a room, I stand up and give them my chair and show respect. A Blackwater mercenary I do not acknowledge. The rolex watch, Marlboro cigarettes and brush cuts do not make them men. Neither do their inflated egos.

A soldier is supposed to wear the uniform as a sign not of power but humility and dignity. A Blackwater operative swaggers.

Soldiers don't swagger. They walk with proper posture and have nothing to brag about. A good soldier is a humble person who learned he is part of a greater whole. A Blackater operative things he is a one man army.

Thy can kiss my butt. I will stand and give my chair to a soldier any day. Not them.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rue

[On Guard for Thee]

I thought the training was excellent.

[Derek 2.0]

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/08/blackwater-training-canad_n_1333047.html?

I'm guessing 3 or so years.

Day didn't run in 2011, so older than that.............

------------

With that said, the Canadian Forces, like most modern armed forces, have been using defense contractors for decades, with the largest contracts granted by the previous Chretien and Martin Governments........Their use can be cost effective in some areas, reducing annual capital and manpower costs, inversely overuse in other areas can be both costly and wasteful.

[Derek 2.0]

It was done early on in when Canada first entered Afghanistan no one knows how long it went on for.It was all kept hush hush.

Smallc are they the best at what they do? I actually respectfully disagree. There are not better than British, Israeli, German, Australian and other American firms let alone some of our own Canadian firms.

You understand various defense agencies hire former service personal.......the SAS, SASR, GSG9, SEALS, Delta, Rangers etc lose personal annually to such groups...

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadian Forces often seek training from the resources of those with the facilities and experience to do so. Blackwater was one of those resources...they even had experience hanging burned from a Falluja bridge. As for American recruits and regulars, they helped Canada get to the fight and stay in the fight in the first place.

Erik Prince, Blackwater founder, was a U.S. Navy SEAL.

Edited April 11, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[Derek 2.0]

Canadian Forces often seek training from the resources of those with the facilities and experience to do so. Blackwater was one of those resources...they even had experience hanging burned from a Falluja bridge. As for American recruits and regulars, they helped Canada get to the fight and stay in the fight in the first place.

Right, and in some instances, such groups (made of former defense personal) provide services (not only training) in given fields, which in the past DND (or DoD...MoD etc) had to pay costly overhead to retain a unique capability within their forces that they only required from time to time.

[Big Guy]

I believe Topaz is correct. Last Friday (Yesterday) I was watching the 5 pm. CBC news. There is a segment near the end where the journalist panelists are asked for some issue that is flying "under the radar". One of the journalists stated that Blackwater is under another name but they are still training Canadian Special Ops for the DND.

I cannot find an Internet reference at this time.

Update - found one;

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-company-formerly-known-as-blackwater-is-training-canadian-soldiers-296

Edited April 11, 2015 by Big Guy

[On Guard for Thee]

I believe Topaz is correct. Last Friday (Yesterday) I was watching the 5 pm. CBC news. There is a segment near the end where the journalist panelists are asked for some issue that is flying "under the radar". One of the journalists stated that Blackwater is under another name but they are still training Canadian Special Ops for the DND.

I cannot find an Internet reference at this time.

Update - found one;

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-company-formerly-known-as-blackwater-is-training-canadian-soldiers-296

Its ow called US Training Center. They changed their name after a bit of an ugly incident in Iraq.

[Keepitsimple]

What exactly is this war crime organization training our troops???? Where is Harper getting the money to pay for this because Black water does not come cheap... it would be in the millions of dollars! http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=414820f7-998a-496f-b41d-c033e5d6d168

Very old news Topaz......mostly distorted by the media to drum up a story. Just a small point though - I believe it was the Liberals who were in power from 1997 to 2006? So......what was your point again?

Facility used since 1997

Since 2005, 605 Canadian Forces soldiers have been trained at Blackwater or Xe. Some of the money was paid to rent the facility, known as the United States Training Center, but used Canadian Forces trainers to teach, the documents say.

"Note that this figure merely reflects the number of CF personnel who were trained at the facility; a number of CF elements provided their own instructors and simply utilized the facilities."

A spokesman for the Department of National Defence says the Canadian Forces have been using the U.S. Training Center since 1997. The forces can't always train in Canada because the facilities don't exist, can't accommodate the volume of training, or can't be used due to adverse weather conditions, he said.

Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/controversial-contractors-paid-2-4m-by-canadian-forces-1.1160321

[bush_cheney2004]

Hired mercenaries were perfectly acceptable to the British during the American Revolutionary War....some even went to Canada.

The term "Hessians" refers to the approximately 30,000 German troops

hired by the British to help fight during the American Revolution.

[Michael Hardner]

Hired mercenaries were perfectly acceptable to the British during the American Revolutionary War....some even went to Canada.

Indeed, having lived in one of the landing pads of the UE Loyalists, there were German speaking villages in Ontario and I was/am friends with their descendants.

History is along haul, that's for sure. In the end, though, I think the current peaceable Can/Am model will prevail worldwide: people prefer an economy to a fight...

[Derek 2.0]

Hired mercenaries were perfectly acceptable to the British during the American Revolutionary War....some even went to Canada.

The term "Hessians" refers to the approximately 30,000 German troops

hired by the British to help fight during the American Revolution.

Right, likewise their use in early Canada.........Our contribution to the Boer War was a private light cavalry unit, funded by the head of the Canadian Pacific Railway and commanded by Sam Steele of the North West Mounted Police.........Lord Strathcona's Horse, of course, has long since been apart of the regular Canadian army.

[bush_cheney2004]

...History is along haul, that's for sure. In the end, though, I think the current peaceable Can/Am model will prevail worldwide: people prefer an economy to a fight...

No...history has proven quite otherwise.

[Derek 2.0]

No...history has proven quite otherwise.

Indeed and going forward, mankind will continue to kill each other, be it for a country, religion, dogma or under the flag of the greenback dollar ( to borrow from Steve Earle).........

[On Guard for Thee]

And we all know that military industrial complex turns over some serious amounts of greenbacks. Just ask Dick.

[Michael Hardner]

No...history has proven quite otherwise.

Uh.... see your own signature line for disagreement. (?)

[Big Guy]

I assume that these individuals from Blackwater are experts in armament tactics, not in morality or ethics. Canadians may need some assistance in more efficient ways of how to kill people but we certainly do not want any advice from the Americans of why to kill people.

[GostHacked]

Blackwater became Xe which is now known as Academi. Any reference to Blackwater specifically is a few years old. I still don't like them.

[Derek 2.0]

Uh.... see your own signature line for disagreement. (?)

Only a disagreement if you feel wars aren't fought for economic security.......which of course is not the case.

[Derek 2.0]

I assume that these individuals from Blackwater are experts in armament tactics, not in morality or ethics. Canadians may need some assistance in more efficient ways of how to kill people but we certainly do not want any advice from the Americans of why to kill people.

No, as mentioned in an above link, the use of their facilities (with Canadian trainers) in pre-deployment training for members going to Afghanistan was namely a result of Canada not having enough room in its own facilities......namely ranges simulating urban warfare and indoor/close quarter battle, which without a doubt saved the lives of many Canadian Forces members deployed to Afghanistan.

Morality and ethics are installed in new recruits, in Canada, by Canadians at CFLRS.

[bush_cheney2004]

Uh.... see your own signature line for disagreement. (?)

There is no disagreement....they are perfectly consistent.

[bush_cheney2004]

I assume that these individuals from Blackwater are experts in armament tactics, not in morality or ethics. Canadians may need some assistance in more efficient ways of how to kill people but we certainly do not want any advice from the Americans of why to kill people.

Canadians kill people across the sea to protect their "human rights" !