Men's Rights

[Michael Hardner]

Incorrect, I said pressure, not the announcement itself.

You think that announcements just occur with nothing leading up to them?

No, I don't think that. The article is doing the opposite of what you were doing - showing that the university is being accused of insensitivity with the timing of the announcement. Here again is the opening line:

"Less than 24 hours after a male student at the University of York killed himself, York announced it would not be marking International Men’s Day after pressure from feminist campaigners, Breitbart has learned."

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/11/18/male-university-of-york-student-commits-suicide-on-day-his-university-ditches-international-mens-day-after-pressure-from-feminists/

[Black Dog]

Because it's not part of it. Women are perfectly capability of killing themselves if they want to. They just don't want to as strongly as men. On the other hand, if you attempt suicide and fail, you are more likely to gain sympathy as a women than as a man. So there is a larger incentive for women to fail suicide than for men.

What a pile of garbage. But it does say a lot about how you view women.

[-1=e^ipi]

cite...

I need a cite for the fact that people are more likely to get sympathy/empathy if they are female than male? Really? Do you not live in our society?

Okay, how about the double standard with respect to victims of domestic abuse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B16dTOWaZU

Edited November 25, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[-1=e^ipi]

No, I don't think that. The article is doing the opposite of what you were doing - showing that the university is being accused of insensitivity with the timing of the announcement. Here again is the opening line:

Initially the university was going to mark men's day. Then there was pressure from feminists to get it removed. Then someone committed suicide. Then the university announced their decision to abandon men's day (which they were going to make regardless of the suicide).

[Black Dog]

I need a cite for the fact that people are more likely to get sympathy/empathy if they are female than male? Really? Do you not live in our society?

Since you're being disingenuous as usual, can you provide cites for the following clams:

• That women who attempt suicide just don't want to kill themselves as strongly as men.
• That if you attempt suicide and fail, you are more likely to gain sympathy as a women than as a man.
• That said sympathy impacts women's suicide methods.

[-1=e^ipi]

What a pile of garbage. But it does say a lot about how you view women.

Yes, I think that women and men are equally capable of committing suicide.

You don't.

[Black Dog]

Initially the university was going to mark men's day. Then there was pressure from feminists to get it removed. Then someone committed suicide. Then the university announced their decision to abandon men's day (which they were going to make regardless of the suicide).

So what does the suicide have to do with? Are you suggesting the pressure from feminists led to the suicide?

[Black Dog]

Yes, I think that women and men are equally capable of committing suicide.

You don't.

Where did I say that, exactly? Even if I did, that's still less retarded than your claim that women intentionally select less lethal methods as a way to get sympathy.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Black Dog

[-1=e^ipi]

So what does the suicide have to do with? Are you suggesting the pressure from feminists led to the suicide?

Not taking men's issues seriously leads to a higher male suicide rate because men have nowhere to turn.

[-1=e^ipi]

Where did I say that, exactly? Even if I did, that's still less retarded than your claim that women intentionally select less lethal methods as a way to get sympathy.

You aren't even denying it.

Black Dog, the sexist who thinks that women are too stupid to know how to commit suicide properly and need a man on the internet to come save them from the evil people that want gender/sex equality.

[Boges]

Not taking men's issues seriously leads to a higher male suicide rate because men have nowhere to turn.

Suck it up buttercup I suppose.

[Black Dog]

Not taking men's issues seriously leads to a higher male suicide rate because men have nowhere to turn.

That's a general comment. Are you saying this specific student killed himself as a result of the pressure feminists were putting on the university? Because that's the implication.

You aren't even denying it.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought my asking "where did I say that?" was enough but I guess I need to spell it out for you: I have never said, or even implied, that.

Black Dog, the sexist who thinks that women are too stupid to know how to commit suicide properly and need a man on the internet to come save them from the evil people that want gender/sex equality.

This from the guy who thinks women scheme to fake suicide attempts for lulz. Admit it: you're faking this whole schtick, aren't you? It';s gotta be a Poe's law thing: the straw MRA. I hope that's the case, because if not....woof.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Black Dog

[-1=e^ipi]

That's a general comment. Are you saying this specific student killed himself as a result of the pressure feminists were putting on the university?

It's a contributing factor.

This from the guy who thinks women scheme to fake suicide attempts for lulz.

I never said that. Attempting to commit suicide with ineffective methods is a good indicator of mental distress.

Admit it: you're faking this whole schtick, aren't you?

I'm not faking anything. But you need to think I am in order for you to maintain your view of the world.

[Black Dog]

It's a contributing factor.

Unless you know the victim personally or there was some kind of public suicide note stating that as a factor, you're absolutely, 100 per cent full of shit in saying there's a connection between this specific suicide and the specific circumstances of university feminist's issues with International Mans Day.

Like, it's one thing to cite this case and say [Alanis voice]Isn't it ironic?[/Alanis voice]; another, much stupider, thing to actually try and create a direct link between the two. But you did it! You get a golden fedora!

I never said that. Attempting to commit suicide with ineffective methods is a good indicator of mental distress.

Again, here's what you said

They just don't want to as strongly as men. On the other hand, if you attempt suicide and fail, you are more likely to gain sympathy as a women than as a man. So there is a larger incentive for women to fail suicide than for men.

Let's put it this way: you are a lot closer to saying women intentionally flub suicides to get sympathy than I ever was to saying women are too dumb to kill themselves properly or whatever nonsense you like to pretend I said.

I'm not faking anything.

That's a real shame. I usually like to think the real garbage people on the internet are just personas.

But you need to think I am in order for you to maintain your view of the world.

Actually, you being who and what you say you are does more to bolster my worldview with regard to MRAs than any made up character ever could. So by all means: keep on digging!

Edited November 25, 2015 by Black Dog

[-1=e^ipi]

Unless you know the victim personally or there was some kind of public suicide note stating that as a factor, you're absolutely, 100 per cent full of shit in saying there's a connection between this specific suicide and the specific circumstances of university feminist's issues with International Mans Day.

The constant dismissal of men's issues, such as by those feminists and as you are doing in this thread, increases suicide.

You get a golden fedora!

Can someone please explain the fedora reference to me? I don't really get it. From the wiki: "The hat was fashionable for women, and the women's rights movement adopted it as a symbol. By the early 21st century, the fedora became a symbol of hipsters."

Let's put it this way: you are a lot closer to saying women intentionally flub suicides to get sympathy

Women, on average, have a greater incentive to have a failed suicide attempt due to our society being more sympathetic to women than to men, and this results in more female failed suicide attempts. This does not imply that all these women are flubbing suicide attempts. Reality is not so certain. Some methods have a lower chance of success than other methods. Women are choosing the methods with low chance of success, and the reason isn't because they are too stupid to know which methods have a high chance of success.

saying women are too dumb to kill themselves properly or whatever nonsense you like to pretend I said.

You don't deny it and it is implied by what you have said in this thread.

with regard to MRAs

I don't self-identify as an MRA.

Edited November 25, 2015 by -1=e^ipi

[Boges]

I think you both are having a flame-war without even addressing the issue.

Is the apparent stats that show White males seem to kill themselves at an exponentially larger rate that women a concern?

Or are we going to disregard that fact by simply saying women kill themselves as much, they just choose less lethal method. If that's the case, I'd like to see some citation.

But that still ignores the reality that any sensible person would recognize methods of killing themselves 100%. I'm sure there's internet research someone can do as horrible as that is.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Boges

[-1=e^ipi]

exponentially larger rate

You are misusing the word exponentially...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth

[Black Dog]

The constant dismissal of men's issues, such as by those feminists and as you are doing in this thread, increases suicide.

There's no evidence of that. Nor have I ever denied men's issues: my issue is with the people who use those issues as ways of scoring debate points and shaking down suckers without doing anything to actually help.

Women, on average, have a greater incentive to have a failed suicide attempt due to our society being more sympathetic to women than to men, and this results in more female failed suicide attempts. This does not imply that all these women are flubbing suicide attempts.

That's exactly what it implies. Unless you don't understand what the word "incentive" means?

Some methods have a lower chance of success than other methods. Women are choosing the methods with low chance of success, and the reason isn't because they are too stupid to know which methods have a high chance of success.

And they aren't choosing those less lethal methods because they suspect it will fail and they'll get hugs and sympathy out of the deal either. Research has shown that most women who attempt suicide are - brace yourself! - actually trying to end their lives.

You don't deny it and it is implied by what you have said in this thread.

I did deny it and any such implication is found only in the fever swamp of your mind.

I don't self-identify as an MRA.

So what? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, posts links to videos of other ducks on YouTube, it's probably a duck.

[Black Dog]

I think you both are having a flame-war without even addressing the issue.

Is the apparent stats that show White males seem to kill themselves at an exponentially larger rate that women a concern?

Or are we going to disregard that fact by simply saying women kill themselves as much, they just choose less lethal method. If that's the case, I'd like to see some citation.

Who's saying this? It's well documented men kill themselves at higher rates than women. But women are more likely to attempt suicide (something euler and fellow MRAs gloss over when this subject comes up).

None of this is a big secret and there's some superficial explanations that go a long way to explaining the gap. Men are more likely to have access to firearms than women for one thing, while women are more likely to have prescription drugs on hand. Men are also more likely to self-medicate with booze and make decisions under the influence. Hell, maybe women are also just more concerned about leaving a mangled corpse for their loved ones behind? There's lots of potential explanations and certainly it's worth exploring. But you know what doesn't help? Simply brandishing the fact that men succeed in offing themselves more than women and using it as a cudgel against the great gynocracy.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Black Dog

[-1=e^ipi]

There's no evidence of that.

Sure there is. Try asking men that have either attempted suicide or been on the verge of being suicidal.

And they aren't choosing those less lethal methods because they suspect it will fail and they'll get hugs and sympathy out of the deal either. Research has shown that most women who attempt suicide are - brace yourself! - actually trying to end their lives.

Things aren't that binary. A person may prefer a method that has a 50% probability of success than either a method that has a 0% probability and a method that has a 100% probability.

So what?

I'm not an MRA. Stop pretending I am.

[-1=e^ipi]

Men are also more likely to self-medicate with booze and make decisions under the influence.

And why do you think this is? Maybe it's because men don't have any better options other than suicide because society is conditioned to not care about the emotional concerns of men.

[Black Dog]

Sure there is. Try asking men that have either attempted suicide or been on the verge of being suicidal.

Anecdote is not evidence. Nor have you presented evidence proving your assertion that this York student's suicide was a result of the fight over International Men's Day.

Things aren't that binary. A person may prefer a method that has a 50% probability of success than either a method that has a 0% probability and a method that has a 100% probability.

You know what is the biggest factor in people's choice of method? Accessibility.

I'm not an MRA. Stop pretending I am.

In what way are you not? You quote them, you repeat their talking points...I see no functional difference here.

And why do you think this is? Maybe it's because men don't have any better options other than suicide because society is conditioned to not care about the emotional concerns of men.

It's less about society not caring about the emotional concerns of men than it is society conditioning men not to show emotions in the first place.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Black Dog

[Black Dog]

The New York Times recently ran a couple of pieces on a USMC battalion that had been plagued by the suicides of its former members. This piece talks about some of the reasons why, some of which would certainly apply to society at large.

Q. What role do guns have in veterans’ suicides?

D.P.: In the 2/7, nine of the 13 Marines who killed themselves used guns. I spoke to three more who put a gun to their head and pulled the trigger but did not die, and several more who had contemplated suicide with a gun. It appears to be a very big risk factor to have a gun in the house. The V.A. has recognized this, but has been careful in how it presents advice (recommending storing weapons voluntarily with a friend) because doctors don’t want veterans to avoid treatment out of fear they will lose their guns.

Dr. Charles Engel: Six of 10 gun-related deaths are suicides, and about half of all suicides are gun-related. Most suicides occur on impulse, and the availability of a gun makes it all too easy for a person experiencing suicidal thoughts to act on that impulse.

...

Q. Why isn’t more being done to try and understand the connection between drug and alcohol use and PTSD?

D.P.: In my reporting on the 2/7 battalion, I found alcohol was a huge factor in a number of deaths. Many of the guys were treating their anxiety and sleep problems with alcohol, which generally created more problems (eroding their support system of loved ones, for example.) At least five of the 13 Marines I wrote about shot themselves while drunk.

...

Q. With the increased involvement of women in the military, how do their suicide numbers compare with those of men?

C.E. In the military as in the general population, rates of suicide are consistently higher in men than women. However, research suggests that currently deployed women may have higher rates of suicide than military women who have never deployed. In contrast, currently deployed men show little if any increased suicide risk compared to military men who have never deployed. An Army study found that the risk of suicide among currently deployed women was about three times that of nondeployed women. Even so, the risk of suicide among currently deployed men was still almost twice as high as for currently deployed women.

D.P.: In general, women have much lower rates of suicide than men, in part because men tend to use firearms more often. But a recent study found women who are veterans are drastically more likely to commit suicide than civilian women. This may be because women who are veterans use firearms more often.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Black Dog

[-1=e^ipi]

Anecdote is not evidence.

Sure it is. It is called anecdotal evidence.

Nor have you presented evidence proving your assertion that this York student's suicide was a result of the fight over International Men's Day.

My claim was that denying men's issues is a contributing factor towards male suicide.

You know what is the biggest factor in people's choice of method? Accessibility.

Proof? And by accessibility, do you mean accessibility to things like sympathy and empathy, or people not dismissing your concerns?

than it is society conditioning men not to show emotions in the first place.

It is both. One of the ways society conditions men to not show emotions is by not caring about those emotions.

[-1=e^ipi]

On firearms, male suicide rates are much higher in many different countries, even in countries where access to guns is very difficult (example: Japan).