Argus Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 So let's look at the sunshine list and see how our lower level public servants are getting paid.Let's see, on the education front we have Roseann Runte, the President of Carleton University. She earned $355,000 plus $49,000 in benefits. Daniel Wolfe, Principle at Queens made $364,000 plus $27,000 benefits. That was chump change next to the president of Western University Amit Chakma, who made $924,000 plus $42,000 in benefits.In case you were wondering, the deputy minister of education, the guy who runs the whole shebang, made $228,000 with $1,000 in benefits. The minister makes a paltry $165,000. Virtually all the school board directors in the province make more than that.Let's look at health care. Rona Ambrose, the federal minister of health makes about $230,000. The deputy minister of health makes about $300,000. Meanwhile, he Chief Executive officer at Humber River Regional Health makes $500,000, the CEO at St. Michaels makes $544,000, the CEO at Bridgepoint Hospital, wherever that is, makes $487,000, the president, and the CEO at Ottawa Hospital make $621,000 and $630,000 respectively, and the CEO at Sunnybrook hospital makes $715,000.What's wrong with this picture?Wayne Wooters, the Clerk of the Privy Council, who is in charge of the entire federal public service of 257,000 employees, makes between $259,000 and $315,000. The Chief Administrative Officer of the town of Richmond Hill and the CAO of the town of Vaughan both make about $261,000. The Chief Administrative Officer for Peel makes $273,000, several deputy city managers of Toronto make $300,000, the city manager for Ottawa makes $341,000, while Toronto's equivalent is over $400,000The highest pay rank I can find for the military is lieutenant general, at $21,000 per month, or $252,000 per year. The Toronto police chief makes $350,000. The chiefs of York, Waterloo, Halton, Ottawa, Hamilton and Peel all make more than the top soldier in the military does. Peel has 1900 officers and 840 support staff. Hamilton has 797 officers and 292 civilians. The military has 69,000 active duty personnel supplemented by 21,000 reservists. I'm not counting the civilians.Every city, university and hospital is chock full of people making multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars for what seems like very few responsibilities as compared to their federal and provincial counterparts. The commissioner of community services at Richmond Hill makes $226,000. The commissioner of public works for Peel makes $229,000. The chief librarian for Toronto makes $240,000. Toronto's human resources chief makes $244,000. The director for planning and infrastructure for Ottawa makes $268,000.Scattered among them are literally thousands of police, teachers and firefighters making well over $100,000. Some are approaching $200,000. One plainclothes police constable made $227,000. At this rate even regular police officers will be making more than the chief of the defense staff in a few years.There's been a lot of focus on federal public servants and what they make, and some focus on provincial public servants. But that's not where the largesse is. The people who work for the colleges and universities, for the hospitals and boards of education, for the cities and towns, those are the people making massive salaries. And those massive salaries when taken together, are one of the chief reasons why our taxes are so high, yet we receive so little for those taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) The Sunshine List is approximately the top 13% of earners in the Ontario public service this year. The list was set at $100,000 in 1996 when the act was implemented by the Harris government. If the list was adjusted for inflation, then it should be set at $142,000 this year (avg annual inflation rate of 1.88%). It's not. A $70,000 job in 1996 is equivalent to a $100,000 job this year, when you account for inflation. So comparing the number of people on the list this year to how many people were on the list in years past is disingenuous. Of course the list is going to grow year on year. Wages grow. You need to adjust for inflation. Edited March 28, 2015 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron Young Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Does any of that matter when we pay for it all through taxes? The real question is do we get value for our money spent? Personally I think we are being robbed blind on so many different fronts it is almost laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Does any of that matter when we pay for it all through taxes? The real question is do we get value for our money spent? Personally I think we are being robbed blind on so many different fronts it is almost laughable. When you pay cops, firefighters, paramedics and teachers $100k that means you either rob other services to pay them, or you have to have fewer of them than you need. Ontario, and Canada in general have a lot fewer cops than most other jurisdictions around the world. That's probably because we pay them 35%-50% more than most other jurisdictions, so we can't afford more. Imagine if we paid teachers one third less. We could either lower taxes, or have classes which were smaller. If hospitals weren't wasting so much money on high salaries for everyone from administrators to kitchen staff we might have more beds for sick people. Universities are huge money wasters. All of those professors are making well over $100k and they don't even teach! We have TA's for that because the professors are too good for teaching! They also get one year of paid leave every seven years! Who else does that anywhere!? School boards are every bit as bad with their administrators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Macadoo Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 What's wrong with this picture? ... There's been a lot of focus on federal public servants and what they make, and some focus on provincial public servants. But that's not where the largesse is. The people who work for the colleges and universities, for the hospitals and boards of education, for the cities and towns, those are the people making massive salaries. And those massive salaries when taken together, are one of the chief reasons why our taxes are so high, yet we receive so little for those taxes. So.....the people who might actually work, runninng a billion dollar conglomerate make more than the figureheads that reiterate what their political masters are lobbied to say? The horror...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 The fact is that thousands of people making $100K costs us more than a few administrators that are overpaid. But the other fact is that these are the same problem: good administrators should be able to at least keep costs relatively level. I think that escalating salaries have to be dealt with and the "deserve" part of the argument has no part in it, either in discussing CEOs or in discussing the salaries of so-called front-line workers. Edited to add: "dealt with" starts with a political discussion in a public forum with reasonable and legitimate stakeholders taking part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 The fact is that thousands of people making $100K costs us more than a few administrators that are overpaid. According to the National Post "the top paid TTC collector, Clarke Smith, raked in $141,146.29 last year." He's a ticket collector! How many other ticket collectors made over $100k?? How is the salary of ticket collectors so high that even with overtime they can pull in that kind of money? These high salaries don't just come out of our pockets they come out of what services we would expect to get for the high taxes and fees we pay. Maybe we could have buses every 15 minutes instead of every 30 minutes or have them go later, or have newer trains and buses if so many transit employees weren't so overpaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 It just so happens that a report out today says the MPs are going to get 2.4 % increase starting April 1st or $4000.00. When the last time tax payers received a pay raise. Of course, with income-splitting the MP's can get more back next year. http://www.hilltimes.com/news/2015/03/27/mps-receive-23-per-cent-pay-raise/41558 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 It just so happens that a report out today says the MPs are going to get 2.4 % increase starting April 1st or $4000.00. When the last time tax payers received a pay raise. Of course, with income-splitting the MP's can get more back next year. http://www.hilltimes.com/news/2015/03/27/mps-receive-23-per-cent-pay-raise/41558 MPs don't decide their own salaries. They don't decide the salaties of others either. Good thing. Oh, and seniors get a raise every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 According to the National Post "the top paid TTC collector, Clarke Smith, raked in $141,146.29 last year." He's a ticket collector! How many other ticket collectors made over $100k?? How is the salary of ticket collectors so high that even with overtime they can pull in that kind of money? These high salaries don't just come out of our pockets they come out of what services we would expect to get for the high taxes and fees we pay. Maybe we could have buses every 15 minutes instead of every 30 minutes or have them go later, or have newer trains and buses if so many transit employees weren't so overpaid. What's the context behind that? How does a ticket collector make roughly 3x the median salary in Canada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) MPs don't decide their own salaries. They don't decide the salaties of others either. Good thing. Oh, and seniors get a raise every year. Meanwhile both Alberta and New Brunswick reduced the salaries of their premiers, cabinets, and MLAs. NB further reduced the size of cabinet to the smallest it has been in 40 years. Contrast that with Ottawa. Harper is getting a raise and has one of the largest cabinets in the history of the nation. Edited March 28, 2015 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 So let's look at the sunshine list and see how our lower level public servants are getting paid. What's wrong with this picture? Primarily the problem as presented is that one is somparing a hospital CEO to a Minister of Health. Who has the harder job? Who has the harder time figuring out the wheres and whys of medical hospitals , staffing , legal issues , funding issues and the daily minutiae of running a huge hospital(s) DOes Rona have 3000 staff? 700 Dr's to deal with ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 So.....the people who might actually work, runninng a billion dollar conglomerate make more than the figureheads that reiterate what their political masters are lobbied to say? The horror...... The horror is your complete inability to comprehend very clearly written English where I specifically stated that it made so little sense for people who are in charge of hospitals to make more than deputy ministers of health - not ministers, where I specifically said it was nuts to have chiefs of police making more than the general who runs the army, where I specifically compared to financial administrators of cities and towns to the guys who run the whole federal government. Was all that too complex for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Primarily the problem as presented is that one is somparing a hospital CEO to a Minister of Health. No, I compared them to the deputy minister of health. Try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 According to the National Post "the top paid TTC collector, Clarke Smith, raked in $141,146.29 last year." He's a ticket collector! How many other ticket collectors made over $100k?? How is the salary of ticket collectors so high that even with overtime they can pull in that kind of money? These high salaries don't just come out of our pockets they come out of what services we would expect to get for the high taxes and fees we pay. Maybe we could have buses every 15 minutes instead of every 30 minutes or have them go later, or have newer trains and buses if so many transit employees weren't so overpaid. The thing is, when you have he big bosses of the transit company making a ton of money, when the bus drivers make huge salaries, well that percolates outward through all the other jobs in the same transit agency. I remember many many years ago applying for a job for a cafeteria worker at the hospital. I had to actually check and see if the ad was a typo since the hourly rate was like four times the minimum wage. In hospitals, the big guys make a fortune, then you have very well-paid doctors and nurses, so of course, everyone else kind of gets the sloshover from those big wages. It's the same at school boards. But it means when some bigshot health bureaucrat from the ministry of health, even the deputy minister, is having a meeting with hospital directors, who theoretically work for him, he's the lowest paid guy in the room by a pretty fair margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 No, I compared them to the deputy minister of health. Try again.Same thing really. The Deputy of Health, Minister of Health whatever, the Dr running the hospital has immensely harder job and a ton load more obligations and commitments. Does a CEO of HRR get a summer break? Does he call for a break in July and tell everyone...." see you when the Fall sitting commences'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Same thing really. The Deputy of Health, Minister of Health whatever, the Dr running the hospital has immensely harder job and a ton load more obligations and commitments. You'll forgive me if I think that argument is bizarre. The people at the top of federal government departments generally work extremely long hours and have enormous responsibilities which involve nationwide programs, tens of thousands of employees, and the spending of tens of billions of dollars. Does a CEO of HRR get a summer break? Does he call for a break in July and tell everyone...." see you when the Fall sitting commences'? Do you have any evidence the CEOs of hospitals put in longer hours than deputy ministers and take fewer vacations? Do you believe police chiefs put in longer hours than the chief of the defense staff? What about university professors who get one year out of every eight off as a free, paid sabbatical and rarely have to teach? Do they work harder than the deputy minister of education? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Seniors do get a raise less than $10.00 on CPP and there's a big difference between 10.00 and $4000.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 All of these people making over 100,000 or more will one day have to pay more taxes because the corporations laying off the middle-class means government won't have the middle-classes income taxes because there won't be a middle-class, only low. Then listen to those people scream! The CEO of Amazon was on the BBC and he said that he noticed the middle-class is being push down and that is bad for a country's economy because rich people don't spend and its the middle-class that keeps it going and he has notice the change in his own business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) You'll forgive me if I think that argument is bizarre. The people at the top of federal government departments generally work extremely long hours and have enormous responsibilities which involve nationwide programs, tens of thousands of employees, and the spending of tens of billions of dollars.Not in any the same way as a Hosp CEO does. What does Rona have? Masters? Arts degree? (not that I weight it lightly) CEO of HRR? Yea....I think you can see the problem. What happens when Harper decides to replace Rona? He picks from his own bench. What happens when the CEO of HRR needs to be booted and replaced? Open the door and yell next? Come on, I am not slagging on any Minister, but it is certainly not in the same league as a CEO of a major Hosp. Do you have any evidence the CEOs of hospitals put in longer hours than deputy ministers and take fewer vacations?How many hours did ROna put in learning about the Minstry of Health? Did they test her at all? Do you believe police chiefs put in longer hours than the chief of the defense staff? What about university professors who get one year out of every eight off as a free, paid sabbatical and rarely have to teach? Do they work harder than the deputy minister of education?Hours are not the measuring stick per se. In the first, I suspect both do long hours. But I cannot help the simple fact that our defence wages are horrible. But thats for the Ministry of Defence to correct. The TO CoP is paid by the city.,.....for them to decide. Ok, ya gots me on the professor.....i concur. Edited March 28, 2015 by Guyser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Macadoo Posted March 28, 2015 Report Share Posted March 28, 2015 Not in any the same way as a Hosp CEO does.What does Rona have? Masters? Arts degree? (not that I weight it lightly)CEO of HRR?Yea....I think you can see the problem. Don't take it too seriously......this was the same character who was bleating about his CRA job and how he was hard done by. He's envious as I suspect he was a contract employee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Not in any the same way as a Hosp CEO does. What does Rona have? Masters? Arts degree? (not that I weight it lightly) CEO of HRR? Why do you keep defaulting to politicians? I have taken some care here to specifically compare deputy ministers in charge of health, education, finance and treasury, people with decades of experience in their area of expertise and considerable knowledge and education. I have not compared a police chief to a minister of defense but to the chief of defense staff. I have compared city administrators to the Clerk of the Privy Council. Yet you keep defaulting to only politicians... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Don't take it too seriously......this was the same character who was bleating about his CRA job and how he was hard done by. He's envious as I suspect he was a contract employee. Another snotty, drive by smear from Bob Macadoo, keeping his record alive of never posting anything either relevant or intelligent! Way to go, Bobbie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 Mike Harris's Sunshine List is out and the outrage re-surfaces. Mike's approach to politics was to divide and conquer - it worked. His idea was to get the private sector upset with the public sector, drive a wedge and maintain power. It worked exceptionally well. It meant something at the time when $100,000 meant something. Now it is insignificant except to highlight the $300,000 + crowd. The idea that there would ever be a consensus on what a particular job is worth is a joke. You get what the market dictates. We have a lab manager in our local hospital who earns over $500,000 a year. Why? Because the qualifications to do that job can be satisfied by about 50 people in Canada so the hospitals compete to get somebody. Average salary for National Basketball Player is $5.15 million, major league baseball is $3.2 million and even the Indian Premier League (Cricket) is $4.0 million. Why do get that? Because they can. What is a "fair" salary? The guy who gets paid the same as you for the same job that you do. But - Except for you and me, I think the rest of these folks are paid far too much for what they do - and I am not sure about you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 29, 2015 Report Share Posted March 29, 2015 It meant something at the time when $100,000 meant something. $100K still means something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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