.

[Argus]

If it's only the percentages, then we can agree that there isn't a fundamental difference between such people... it all evens out over time.

How much time? A thousand years? Do you think all cultures will one day be the same, and have the same values and beliefs?

While there is plentiful evidence that our society has become much less responsive to religion, and much more secular, the opposite is true in Muslim countries. There, the all-encompassing importance of religion and following its dictates influence every aspect of society its culture, its values and its politics.

[LemonPureLeaf]

You're comparing the two as if there's some kind of equivalence here. You want to compare the two, it's the free will to choose to wear a niqab and the free will to choose to murder innocent people. Do you get that?

the niqab is influenced by the men in her life, imam, father, brother. They are told to wear it from birth most times? Told that once they are if a certain age they must wear it.

Violent Jihadists are influenced by Islam, the Koran itself. The literal words of the Koran call for the murder of unbelievers literally, for example.

[SpankyMcFarland]

So what does Mr. Alexander think of the Quebec hijab kerfuffle? He seemed to put niqabs, burkas and hijabs in the same unfavourable category in a recent reply to a question from Chrystia Freeland:

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ottawa/on-chris-alexanders-hijab-reference/

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/02/19/niqab-hijab-ban-chris-alexander_n_6716104.html

Candice Malcolm of the Sun explained that this was because of all that expertise he has in foreign affairs and that hijab can refer to any garment covering the head, including niqabs - it's the generic term encompassing all of them.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/20/life-outside-the-political-bubble

But Candice, see what happens when I type hijab into google images - lots of faces. Maybe Chris can clear this up for us with some sort of public statement? If Dear Leader will allow it. Celeb MPs like Alexander and Freeland often find out that politics is trickier than it appears. Is it so hard to just say you made a mistake? Is that forbidden now?

Edited February 28, 2015 by SpankyMcFarland

[Michael Hardner]

And their behaviour certainly can be explained by the bible if their actions are motivated by the words in the bible

ie. if they say so, I guess.

Why, then, this rush to dissociate the behaviour of Musims who are following their religion and who clearly state the motivation for their actions and behaviour is their religious beliefs? You can certainly find justification for most of what Muslim terrorists do in their religion.

I'm just asking for people to be consistent. And the question isn't whether these people say they're motivated by holy books but what the real cause is. When people talk about Islam as a disease or equate it to Nazism then you have to ask whether it's different from different religions - and BCsapper seems to say no.

Edited to reply to 2nd post:

How much time? A thousand years? Do you think all cultures will one day be the same, and have the same values and beliefs?

You can look back at the dead cultures over the past thousands of years and see that they indeed do meld together, die, and change.

While there is plentiful evidence that our society has become much less responsive to religion, and much more secular, the opposite is true in Muslim countries.

Can you prove that Muslim countries have become less secular as a rule ? I haven't heard that one before. Of course, you could survey Iran in 1970 and 1980 I suppose and use that as your 'proof' but common sense just tells us that the world is becoming more secular and close-knit as time goes on.

I would find it hard to believe that your assertion would be provable beyond just common-sense.

There, the all-encompassing importance of religion and following its dictates influence every aspect of society its culture, its values and its politics.

And so it shall be forever right ? Because Muslims are just fundamentally different from all other peoples and therefore justified to be dehumanized through specific immigration policies and so on ?

You really bend over backwards to fit the world to your idea of it.

[Argus]

I'm just asking for people to be consistent. And the question isn't whether these people say they're motivated by holy books but what the real cause is. When people talk about Islam as a disease or equate it to Nazism then you have to ask whether it's different from different religions - and BCsapper seems to say no.

You know what's different from other religions. Christianity does not come equipped with an entire criminal and legal code and set of political instructions for how believers are to be governed. So in one sense it's not merely a religion but a political ideology. And an extremely hostile one, especially to non-believers.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

Christianity does not come equipped with an entire criminal and legal code and set of political instructions for how believers are to be governed.

I believe that Christians believe the entire bible, including the old testament and its laws. Are you saying now that Christianity doesn't include the precepts of a legal system ?

[Guest]

I'm just asking for people to be consistent. And the question isn't whether these people say they're motivated by holy books but what the real cause is. When people talk about Islam as a disease or equate it to Nazism then you have to ask whether it's different from different religions - and BCsapper seems to say no.

I think you just have to pick your battles. There's not much point in responding to someone who compares Islam to Nazism, or refers to it as a disease.

But taking certain aspects of Islam, and certain Muslims, and pointing out how egregious is their behaviour, and refraining from trying to separate their behaviour from their religion, is a different matter. No problems there.

[LemonPureLeaf]

I believe that Christians believe the entire bible, including the old testament and its laws. Are you saying now that Christianity doesn't include the precepts of a legal system ?

I dont see Christianity lopping off feet, hands and heads like they do in Islamic countries. Plus we dont have any Christian theocracies on the planet besides the Vatican. To the best of my knowledge the Pope has yet to sanction such penalties.

Islam isn't just a religion, its a whole set of rules for living. Codified in law in a number if countries. If you deny this MH, youre simply being dishonest. They aren't even close to the same thing.

[Guest]

I believe that Christians believe the entire bible, including the old testament and its laws. Are you saying now that Christianity doesn't include the precepts of a legal system ?

Some Christians believe the entire Bible. Some just go to Church on Sundays. Some, very few, would act on a literal intepretation of the Bible.

Same with Muslims, Except substitute the Koran for the Bible, and lose the "very few".

[Michael Hardner]

I dont see Christianity lopping off feet, hands and heads like they do in Islamic countries.

It's up to you if you want to attribute it to the religion. You clearly want to do that from the outset anyway.

[LemonPureLeaf]

It's up to you if you want to attribute it to the religion. You clearly want to do that from the outset anyway.

all people who want this law are Muslims. The Muslim scholars make the laws based on Islam. Impossible to divorce the two.

[Michael Hardner]

"very few".

I've already explained why such words are impossible to quantify and lead to murkiness in these discussions.

If you want to quantify these things then use numbers, not adjectives. Next after establishing relative numbers then you can start to talk about factors that determine these numbers.

The anti-Muslim set is actually careful to talk about "countries" since nationality is a determinant of the amount of violence in a society .

[Michael Hardner]

all people who want this law are Muslims.

All the people who want Muslim law are Muslim ? Clearly this is Breaking News, Mr. Leaf. Call Wolf Blizer into the Situation Room.

[jacee]

I'm talking about belief influencing behaviour.

As in enough people believing in a foolish book and its ridiculous notions leading to entire groups of people oppressing other groups of people based on things like gender and not sharing the same beliefs etc....

Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas.

It leads directly to oppressed women and Islamist flying planes into buildings.

Is Anders Breivik a Christian terrorist?

.

[Guest]

I've already explained why such words are impossible to quantify and lead to murkiness in these discussions.

If you want to quantify these things then use numbers, not adjectives. Next after establishing relative numbers then you can start to talk about factors that determine these numbers.

The anti-Muslim set is actually careful to talk about "countries" since nationality is a determinant of the amount of violence in a society .

The problem is that some people are reluctant to accept the genuine abhorrence others might have with repulsive religious practices. They are far more comfortable with the idea that's just white folks dissing brown folks, the way it's always been.

That way you don't have to think about those practices yourself, and risk feeling something other than brotherly love for those same people.

Me, I can actually differentiate between people who do bad things, and people who don't, with out regard for their other defining features.

[LemonPureLeaf]

All the people who want Muslim law are Muslim ? Clearly this is Breaking News, Mr. Leaf. Call Wolf Blizer into the Situation Room.

Muslim scholars make the laws in Islamic countries based on Islam. So to say that it isn't connected to religion is just being dishonest.

[Michael Hardner]

So to say that it isn't connected to religion is just being dishonest.

Well I agree with that point, which is why I have always said that it is connected to the religion. I want to be clear, you see, while others prefer to just slam the religion without any clear point to it. Argus at least is clear in wanting to reduce immigration "from Muslim countries"...

[jacee]

Muslim scholars make the laws in Islamic countries based on Islam. So to say that it isn't connected to religion is just being dishonest.

Hmmm ... I wonder why Muslim Canadians left those countries and came to live here?

To imply that all Muslims are implicated in terrorism or extremist Islam is just being dishonest.

.

[jacee]

Well I agree with that point, which is why I have always said that it is connected to the religion. I want to be clear, you see, while others prefer to just slam the religion without any clear point to it. Argus at least is clear in wanting to reduce immigration "from Muslim countries"...

But Michael, those are people who want to get out of those countries, away from the extremism.

.

[LemonPureLeaf]

Well I agree with that point, which is why I have always said that it is connected to the religion. I want to be clear, you see, while others prefer to just slam the religion without any clear point to it's. Argus at least is clear in wanting to reduce immigration "from Muslim countries"...

Oh I agree with him. Based on the behaviours of Muslims in Islamic lands it doesn't appear that those people are ready to live with us in a modern, secular, inclusive society. Edited February 28, 2015 by LemonPureLeaf

[GostHacked]

Oh I agree with him. Based on the behaviours of Muslims in Islamic lands it doesn't appear that those people are ready to live with us in a modern, secular, inclusive society.

Some of us won't give them the chance either.

[eyeball]

We simply cannot passively accept the subjugation of women in our society

It's hard to take that position seriously when the remedy being offered is to force women to comply with it.

How does that work.

Again, if force is the only solution then force the men to wear blinders. They're the ones with the problem.

[LemonPureLeaf]

Hmmm ... I wonder why Muslim Canadians left those countries and came to live here?

To imply that all Muslims are implicated in terrorism or extremist Islam is just being dishonest.

.

We dont which are ready to live as Canadians first and which put Islam first. So why take the chance of importing terror? The only justification I've heard is some naive, politically correct reason.

I dont understand why some white people are so against the majority and want to see whites become a minority. I just dont get it. Maybe someone else can explain it to me.

[jacee]

We dont which are ready to live as Canadians first and which put Islam first. So why take the chance of importing terror? The only justification I've heard is some naive, politically correct reason.

Which Catholics/Jews/Pentecostals ... are Canadian first, religion second?

I dont understand why some white people are so against the majority and want to see whites become a minority. I just dont get it. Maybe someone else can explain it to me.

The vast majority of Canadians are not white supremacists.

.

Edited February 28, 2015 by jacee

[eyeball]

I dont understand why some white people are so against the majority and want to see whites become a minority. I just dont get it. Maybe someone else can explain it to me.

Its not a matter of wanting to be in a minority it's a matter of indifference but maybe that's even scarier to you.