Argus Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 But I don't speak for Arab nations so I'm not sure why you're asking me whether or not they're going to compensate them. Because you had no problem stating it was time for Israel to compensate those who fled Israel during the war, when the Arabs attacked them. There are now millions of Palestinians in several Arab countries who have been taken in. The reason why they do not become citizens of those countries is because that would mean that they have given up on their home in Palestine or as they say: "in order to preserve the Palestinian entity and Palestinian identity." That's funny. You say that like it's their choice, like they were given the option. There has never been a Palestinian state, and yet you're suggesting these people refused to give up what exactly, out of some sort of proud nationalism, in order to become citizens of Jordan (which used to be part of Palestine), Syria, Lebanon and Egypt? The fact is they were never permitted to be citizens of those countries, even though most of them were born there. The surrounding Arab countries have preferred to keep them in permanent 'refugee camps' to use as a continual lever in hopes of destabilizing Israel. They are pawns in the Arab world's political game. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 There's still deep animosity between the so-called Palestinians and the Jordanians. The Grand Mufti had assassinated Jordan's first king for seeking peace with Israel while Arafat had tried to takeover Jordan by force in 1970. More Palestinians died in that event than in any Israeli-PLO dust-up...but few remember it...unlike 1967. I'm not saying it would be easy, but Jordan and Palestinians are the same people. Jordan was simply carved out of Palestine and renamed. And I can't think of any way the people in the West Bank will ever have any sort of chance for prosperity, even in an independent Palestine. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 I'm not saying it would be easy, but Jordan and Palestinians are the same people. Jordan was simply carved out of Palestine and renamed. And I can't think of any way the people in the West Bank will ever have any sort of chance for prosperity, even in an independent Palestine. What few in the West realize is that the Hashemite and al-Husseini/Hussein/etc clans both see themselves as the guardians/keepers of al-Aqsa. This has resulted in an ongoing feud that really hasn't ever been solved. Then you get fellows like the current Grand Mufti claiming the Jews never had a temple on the Temple Mount...I doubt that's helpful to the situation. http://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-mufti-denies-temple-mount-ever-housed-jewish-shrine/ Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Bonam Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 Gaza is a huge country, population wise, and absorbing Gaza would not be a big problem. After a few years of improvement in their lives I think most of the Palestinians there would be pretty happy to call themselves Egyptians and have no more violence, bombing or masked men dragging suspected informers through the streets on ropes. Jordan would be a harder job, but money talks, and Jordan needs it. And as with Gazans, a few years of peace and relative prosperity would probably dissuade most of the people of the West Bank from the theory of how wonderful a new country would be. You underestimate the depth of animosity that exists and overestimate the rationality of the people in the area.
marcus Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) And I can't think of any way the people in the West Bank will ever have any sort of chance for prosperity, even in an independent Palestine. Once again, you want to qualify your opinions and expect people to debate against your misinformed feelings and opinions. Who the heck are you to conclude that the Palestinians could not find prosperity if they had their own state? What kind of a backwards reasoning is that to give excuse to continue the occupation and land theft by Israel? The Palestinians need justice and the law needs to be followed. Israel and zionism has come in the way of that. The Arab countries and their governments, who were mostly implanted by the West, are shitty, but they are not the major problem in the Palestinians' struggle. It is Israel and Zionism that is the problem. Israel needs to continue to be isolated and that is going to be achieved through BDS. Similar to how the world pressured Apartheid South Africa. Edited October 26, 2015 by marcus "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Big Guy Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 ... Who the heck are you to conclude that the Palestinians could not find prosperity if they had their own state? What kind of a backwards reasoning is that to give excuse to continue the occupation and land theft by Israel?.... That is a logical assumption if you believe that certain peoples and/cultures are superior and inferior to others. One would have to be part of the superior culture to make that differentiation and conclusion. Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Bonam Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 That is a logical assumption if you believe that certain peoples and/cultures are superior and inferior to others. One would have to be part of the superior culture to make that differentiation and conclusion. Or one might base that conclusion on the fact that the two parts of the proposed Palestinian state are discontinuous, that the larger of the two territories is landlocked, that they have very limited natural resources, that the territories are overcrowded in terms of population density, and that they would be unlikely to enjoy robust trade with their neighbors due to the history of violence and animosity. But no... easier to just assume anyone who disagrees with you is racist.
Argus Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 (edited) That is a logical assumption if you believe that certain peoples and/cultures are superior and inferior to others. One would have to be part of the superior culture to make that differentiation and conclusion. I'm curious here. Are you actually unaware that the Palestinians are Arabs? So when I suggest they should join with Jordanians and with Egyptians in order to enjoy prosperity, are you aware that the Jordanians and Egyptians are also Arabs? I'm trying to figure out just how strange and twisty your thinking is on this issue, and how deep is the ignorance from which it arises. Because I really don't understand how saying the Palestinians need to join with other Arabs for prosperity can be interpreted as suggesting their culture is inferior either to mine or to those around them. Would you care to explain? Are you capable of explaining? Edited October 26, 2015 by Argus "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 26, 2015 Report Posted October 26, 2015 Who the heck are you to conclude that the Palestinians could not find prosperity if they had their own state? What kind of a backwards reasoning is that to give excuse to continue the occupation and land theft by Israel? Well, let's see. We start out with the bedrock understanding that the middle east is not an area rich in natural resources except for those nations which have oil. All other nations there are pretty poor, the smaller, the poorer. Then we examine the economic viability of their small territory and realize that it's next to Israel, which will not trade or help it, Syria, which is a basket case, and Lebanon, which is half a basket case, and dirt poor. We look at the fact the water is scarce and getting worse, that the educational system is a mess, the infrastructure a disaster, and the only history of democratic government they have resulted in them electing terrorists who drag suspected informers through the streets on ropes and engage in extra-judicial executions - to say nothing of imprisonment without trial and torture. Then we google the question. The conclusion of this sobering report, which contradicts the more optimistic picture of the Palestinian economy presented by the IMF in 2011, is that although the Palestinian Authority [PA], the official representative group established in 1994, has made steady progress in many areas towards establishing the institutions required by a future state, the economy is currently not strong enough to support such a country. The report is a bitter commentary on the the Palestinian economy -- especially compared to the economies of Israel and even Jordan -- currently in a self-inflicted decline induced by the violence it brought on itself by launching the Second Intifada in September 2000. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3258/palestinian-state-economically-viable "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Hudson Jones Posted October 26, 2015 Author Report Posted October 26, 2015 Those damn Jews! Why don't they just sit quietly and let themselves be stabbed!? :angry: Those damn Palestinians! Why don't they just sit quietly while their land is stolen from them, they are discriminated against, not allowed to form a country and are treated worse than dogs by the occupiers while the U.S. gives them a carte blanche to continue?! :angry: When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 Those damn Palestinians! Why don't they just sit quietly while their land is stolen from them, they are discriminated against, not allowed to form a country and are treated worse than dogs by the occupiers while the U.S. gives them a carte blanche to continue?! :angry: Sounds like another country we know, but that would be off topic. The U.S. supports Israel for lots of reasons. Israel makes a much better BFF than people hell bent on achieving objectives with terrorism. Advantage Israel..... Economics trumps Virtue.
Big Guy Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 Or one might base that conclusion on the fact that the two parts of the proposed Palestinian state are discontinuous, that the larger of the two territories is landlocked, that they have very limited natural resources, that the territories are overcrowded in terms of population density, and that they would be unlikely to enjoy robust trade with their neighbors due to the history of violence and animosity. But no... easier to just assume anyone who disagrees with you is racist. Many people disagree with me. Sometimes they are correct - sometimes they are not. "That is a logical assumption if you believe that certain peoples and/cultures are superior and inferior to others. One would have to be part of the superior culture to make that differentiation and conclusion." I consider people who think they and/or their culture are superior are racists. If you feel that describes your position then I have made my point. If you do not - then why comment? Certain posters have called me mistaken, ignorant, a moron, an anti-Semite, a terrorist sympathiser, Jew hater, an Arab lover, A Palestinian mouthpiece, a sanctimonious jerk, and have bad breath. I do not have bad breath. I have disparaging and incorrect comments thrown at me here all of the time. I know that if I found a poster insulting, mistaken and/or demeaning, then I would ignore them - and I do. I suggest you exert similar self discipline. One is not mandated to reply to a post. One is not expected to reply to a post. One is not even expected to read the post. One reads and relies to a post as a courtesy - if the initiator is courteous. If not then pffhthfffthf!!!! Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dre Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) I'm not saying it would be easy, but Jordan and Palestinians are the same people. Jordan was simply carved out of Palestine and renamed. And I can't think of any way the people in the West Bank will ever have any sort of chance for prosperity, even in an independent Palestine. Israel would never allow that. It wants to keep the west bank, and continue to plunder it for resources. I'm curious here. Are you actually unaware that the Palestinians are Arabs? So when I suggest they should join with Jordanians and with Egyptians in order to enjoy prosperity The palestinians are not in any position to "join" with anyone anymore than they are to create their own state. THe west bank is occupied territory and that came to be in large part because of a squabble with Jordan and Lebanon over access to the water there. Israel is not going to turn over the west bank to ANYBODY. Its packed full of vital Israeli national infrastructure. Edited October 27, 2015 by dre I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Bonam Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 Many people disagree with me. Sometimes they are correct - sometimes they are not. "That is a logical assumption if you believe that certain peoples and/cultures are superior and inferior to others. One would have to be part of the superior culture to make that differentiation and conclusion." I consider people who think they and/or their culture are superior are racists. If you feel that describes your position then I have made my point. If you do not - then why comment? Certain posters have called me mistaken, ignorant, a moron, an anti-Semite, a terrorist sympathiser, Jew hater, an Arab lover, A Palestinian mouthpiece, a sanctimonious jerk, and have bad breath. I do not have bad breath. I have disparaging and incorrect comments thrown at me here all of the time. I know that if I found a poster insulting, mistaken and/or demeaning, then I would ignore them - and I do. I suggest you exert similar self discipline. One is not mandated to reply to a post. One is not expected to reply to a post. One is not even expected to read the post. One reads and relies to a post as a courtesy - if the initiator is courteous. If not then pffhthfffthf!!!! Care to comment on the topic at hand rather than pompously expounding upon your superior "self-discipline"? Do you agree that there are other plausible reasons, besides racism, why someone might consider unlikely the prospect of a Palestinian state as typically envisioned (in the West Bank and Gaza) being prosperous? If so, then why do you leap to accuse Argus of racism? If not, then perhaps you should consider the factors I mentioned in my previous post and discuss those if you disagree, rather than talking about how awesome of a poster you are and how everyone should be like you.
Bonam Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 The palestinians are not in any position to "join" with anyone anymore than they are to create their own state. THe west bank is occupied territory and that came to be in large part because of a squabble with Jordan and Lebanon over access to the water there. Israel is not going to turn over the west bank to ANYBODY. Its packed full of vital Israeli national infrastructure. We've been over this ad nauseam. Israel's water needs could be easily supplied entirely through desalination for a tiny fraction of the ongoing cost of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the damage to international relations that the conflict causes for Israel. And, in fact, Israel is rapidly building desalination capacity and its reliance on water in the West Bank will continue to decrease, and could have been eliminated entirely at any point in the last two decades or so if the need to do it was there. While Israel is happy to pump water out of the West Bank while it has some control over the area, the water is far from a strategic necessity, and if it was the only reason for Israel to be in the West Bank, it would have been long gone. You can keep repeating the water thing but the numbers just don't support it as a driver for the conflict in the 21st century. Maybe back in the 70s and 80s, but not now.
Big Guy Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 Care to comment on the topic at hand rather than pompously expounding upon your superior "self-discipline"? Do you agree that there are other plausible reasons, besides racism, why someone might consider unlikely the prospect of a Palestinian state as typically envisioned (in the West Bank and Gaza) being prosperous? If so, then why do you leap to accuse Argus of racism? If not, then perhaps you should consider the factors I mentioned in my previous post and discuss those if you disagree, rather than talking about how awesome of a poster you are and how everyone should be like you. "pompously", "Awesome of a poster you are" and "how everyone should be like you"? And you expect a courteous and serious reply? And to dre - it is refreshing to hear from somebody who has taken the time to objectively study and evaluate the situation in the West Bank. Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Big Guy Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 Some of those who criticize my position on the way Israelis treat the Palestinians try to deflect my view as a minority and held only by anti-Semites. When there is reference to the "rest of the world" it too is dismissed as unfounded. Well, here is a point of view of academics from the United Kingdom: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/uk-academics-sever-ties-israeli-universities-151027083749475.html UK academics have severed ties with Israeli universities. In a statement released on Tuesday, 343 UK academics announced that they would no longer accept invitations to visit Israeli academic institutions, act as referees in any of their processes, or participate in conferences funded or organised by them. There are more and more indicators around the world that other nations are looking at Israel as a rogue nation. Time for Canada to wash our hands of Israel and look to Iran as an ally in the Middle East. Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
dre Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) We've been over this ad nauseam. Israel's water needs could be easily supplied entirely through desalination for a tiny fraction of the ongoing cost of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the damage to international relations that the conflict causes for Israel. And, in fact, Israel is rapidly building desalination capacity and its reliance on water in the West Bank will continue to decrease, and could have been eliminated entirely at any point in the last two decades or so if the need to do it was there. While Israel is happy to pump water out of the West Bank while it has some control over the area, the water is far from a strategic necessity, and if it was the only reason for Israel to be in the West Bank, it would have been long gone. You can keep repeating the water thing but the numbers just don't support it as a driver for the conflict in the 21st century. Maybe back in the 70s and 80s, but not now. No it IS a strategic necessity. Thats why they built the NWC and all the wells, pumping stations, etc. Thats also why they threatened to bomb Lebanon a few years back for pumping water out of the Litany, enforce strict quotas, etc. Its also one of the main factors that lead to the occupation in the first place. It doesnt matter what you believe, because Israeli leaders believe different. Israel isnt going to just give up access to the bulk of their water supply and the occupation will continue to secure water resources in both the west bank and golan heights. Israel IS working on things like desalination, but the problem with that is they also have an energy shortage so its not the silver bullet you make it out to be. Edited October 27, 2015 by dre I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 Care to comment on the topic at hand rather than pompously expounding upon your superior "self-discipline"? Do you agree that there are other plausible reasons, besides racism, why someone might consider unlikely the prospect of a Palestinian state as typically envisioned (in the West Bank and Gaza) being prosperous? If so, then why do you leap to accuse Argus of racism? If not, then perhaps you should consider the factors I mentioned in my previous post and discuss those if you disagree, rather than talking about how awesome of a poster you are and how everyone should be like you. Yes, everyone should be like him and ignore posters who make disparaging comments about them. Except, of course, he doesn't do any such thing and never has. Instead he takes every opportunity to climb on a pedestal and insult the character of everyone who disagrees with his childishly misinformed view of the world. "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 27, 2015 Report Posted October 27, 2015 Some of those who criticize my position on the way Israelis treat the Palestinians try to deflect my view as a minority and held only by anti-Semites. When there is reference to the "rest of the world" it too is dismissed as unfounded. Well, here is a point of view of academics from the United Kingdom: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/uk-academics-sever-ties-israeli-universities-151027083749475.html And then he posts propaganda from Al Jazeera! LOL UK academics have severed ties with Israeli universities. Well, 343 of them did. Which is what, like 0.00001% of the academics in the UK? Time for Canada to wash our hands of Israel and look to Iran as an ally in the Middle East. And you wonder why your views are ridiculed? LOL :lol: "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted October 28, 2015 Report Posted October 28, 2015 ... But no... easier to just assume anyone who disagrees with you is racist. You may not have noticed by now so I will point out that I do not criticize other posters for their opinions unless those opinions are what I consider to be racist or xenophobic - then I share with others what my personal view to be. I also try to make it very plain that those are my views and my views only - I do not attempt to speak for other posters. I also feel that the average poster here is intelligent and is quite capable with reading and understanding what and how other posters are submitting and therefore let each reader make up their own mind. There are a few posts just before this one in which certain pollsters express their views. Good for them. I trust that those who read those words are bright enough to make up their own minds. I believe that sometimes, when someone has ideas and attitudes that one finds unhealthy and distasteful that the best method is to give them a stage, a spotlight and a megaphone - and allow the audience to make their own decisions. Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
jbg Posted October 28, 2015 Report Posted October 28, 2015 No. The most cowardly and sinister an action that anyone can commit is to impose a dictatorship on a weaker people in another country. The enduring harm and fallout - terrorism, refugees, radicalism etc - is so great it should be high amongst the very worst crimes against humanity that can be committed. How does that apply to Syria's humanitarian crisis? Are they successfully self-governing? Why would you want to inflict that misery on Jews? Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted October 28, 2015 Report Posted October 28, 2015 There's still deep animosity between the so-called Palestinians and the Jordanians. The Grand Mufti had assassinated Jordan's first king for seeking peace with Israel while Arafat had tried to takeover Jordan by force in 1970. More Palestinians died in that event than in any Israeli-PLO dust-up...but few remember it...unlike 1967. That Jordanian slaughter, in 1970 gave the name to the "Black September" group that attacked Lod (now Ben Gurion) airport in May 1972 and the Olympics in September 1972. Which gives rise to the following question: would Hamas have honored a "deal" between Israel and Black September? Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted October 28, 2015 Report Posted October 28, 2015 Once again, you want to qualify your opinions and expect people to debate against your misinformed feelings and opinions. Who the heck are you to conclude that the Palestinians could not find prosperity if they had their own state? What kind of a backwards reasoning is that to give excuse to continue the occupation and land theft by Israel? The Palestinians need justice and the law needs to be followed. Israel and zionism has come in the way of that. The Arab countries and their governments, who were mostly implanted by the West, are shitty, but they are not the major problem in the Palestinians' struggle. It is Israel and Zionism that is the problem. Israel needs to continue to be isolated and that is going to be achieved through BDS. Similar to how the world pressured Apartheid South Africa. So you want to ignore the experience of every single other Arab state that isn't a mass petroleum exporter. Are any prosperous? Do any treat their citizens well? How many are in internal war? Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
marcus Posted October 28, 2015 Report Posted October 28, 2015 Some of those who criticize my position on the way Israelis treat the Palestinians try to deflect my view as a minority and held only by anti-Semites. When there is reference to the "rest of the world" it too is dismissed as unfounded. Well, here is a point of view of academics from the United Kingdom: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/uk-academics-sever-ties-israeli-universities-151027083749475.html UK academics have severed ties with Israeli universities. In a statement released on Tuesday, 343 UK academics announced that they would no longer accept invitations to visit Israeli academic institutions, act as referees in any of their processes, or participate in conferences funded or organised by them. There are more and more indicators around the world that other nations are looking at Israel as a rogue nation. Time for Canada to wash our hands of Israel and look to Iran as an ally in the Middle East. One of the most important scientists to do this is Stephen Hawking. One of the most important scientists of our time. Stephen Hawking's boycott hits Israel where it hurts: science "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
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