Maclean's: Winnipeg Is Most Racist City

[eyeball]

It's been the other way around for a long time, to our advantage eyeball. The courts see it differently now. I respect your perspective, don't know the answers.

I don't think there are any, it just is what it is.

All I know is that my illusions about Canada and who I am were irrevocably shattered and I've developed a strong desire for even more radical changes in how I'm governed or not governed if that's what it comes to.

Edited January 26, 2015 by eyeball

[Black Dog]

Well, that's your opinion. I'm in Manitoba and witness things all of the time. Would you deny that Nepinak fights for the continuation and even extension of treaty rights? If not, then I'm not sure what you're going on about.

What, exactly, is the problem with that?

[Smallc]

What, exactly, is the problem with that?

My problem with that? It should be a pretty simple concept, I would think. Aboriginal people have far worse indicators overall than the rest of the Canadian population. What's the reason for that? Now you , could blame racism, or genetics if you are a racist, but the reality is that there's an elephant in the room - aboriginal people, overall, live in crappy conditions and do poorly because of the differences that exist under the law. Eliminating those differences would lead to a better form of equality, exactly the type that someone like MLk was fighting for.

[Smallc]

Blame Sir John A.

Or howl at the moon.

Equally effective.

.

It was seen as the easiest thing to do at the time. It was wrong then (though in the historical context, understandable) and at this point in history serves the interests of no one.

b-c is right, smallc.

Canada exists because of the treaties.

They are our treaties.

.

Canada would exist regardless. Just because the British were nice about things doesn't mean that they couldn't have been meaner.

[Black Dog]

My problem with that? It should be a pretty simple concept, I would think. Aboriginal people have far worse indicators overall than the rest of the Canadian population. What's the reason for that? Now you , could blame racism, or genetics if you are a racist, but the reality is that there's an elephant in the room - aboriginal people, overall, live in crappy conditions and do poorly because of the differences that exist under the law. Eliminating those differences would lead to a better form of equality, exactly the type that someone like MLk was fighting for.

Your premise lacks evidentiary support.

[Smallc]

Not really. They have the worst outcomes of any group. Besides that I live this every day. I see the evicence.

[jacee]

It was seen as the easiest thing to do at the time. It was wrong then (though in the historical context, understandable) and at this point in history serves the interests of no one.

Canada would exist regardless. Just because the British were nice about things doesn't mean that they couldn't have been meaner.

"nice" is an extreme exaggeration. Sir John A starved them into signing treaties.

WouldaCouldaShoulda serves the interests of no one and gets us nowhere.

It is right that Indigenous peeople share in the resources and benefits of the land.

.

Edited January 26, 2015 by jacee

[overthere]

My problem with that? It should be a pretty simple concept, I would think. Aboriginal people have far worse indicators overall than the rest of the Canadian population. What's the reason for that? Now you , could blame racism, or genetics if you are a racist, but the reality is that there's an elephant in the room - aboriginal people, overall, live in crappy conditions and do poorly because of the differences that exist under the law. Eliminating those differences would lead to a better form of equality, exactly the type that someone like MLk was fighting for.

There are a couple of rubs there.... the big one of course is that changing the laws(treaties. The Indian Act) would eliminate all the provisions of laws that protect First Nations from the predations of white society, or more accurately the Crown as represented by the Government of Canada. More simply, you and me. I understand that you wish to assimilate First Nations into general society in the premise that their lives would be improved. They have refused this obvious goal for 150+ years. They just won't join us and many have died while we tried. Perhaps another approach is required. This one does not work, obviously. Not only a different approach, but perhaps we should abandon the goal of assimilation.

[jacee]

My problem with that? It should be a pretty simple concept, I would think. Aboriginal people have far worse indicators overall than the rest of the Canadian population. What's the reason for that? Now you , could blame racism, or genetics if you are a racist, but the reality is that there's an elephant in the room - aboriginal people, overall, live in crappy conditions and do poorly because of the differences that exist under the law.

Differences in law that existed in the past - the reviled Indian Act.

Eliminating those differences would lead to a better form of equality, exactly the type that someone like MLk was fighting for.

The current rebalancing has, and will continue to improve the conditions that resulted from genocidal laws, policies and practices

.

[Smallc]

"nice" is an extreme exaggeration. Sir John A starved them into signing treaties.

As opposed to what the Americans and Spanish did...as opposed to what happened over and over again the world over. Comparatively, it was very nice.

WouldaCouldaShoulda serves the interests of no one and gets us nowhere.

It is right that Indigenous peeople share in the resources and benefits of the land.

Share being the operative word. According to the Constitution, we all share in those rights.

There are a couple of rubs there.... the big one of course is that changing the laws(treaties. The Indian Act) would eliminate all the provisions of laws that protect First Nations from the predations of white society, or more accurately the Crown as represented by the Government of Canada.

That supposes that the natural progress of a society is predatory.

More simply, you and me. I understand that you wish to assimilate First Nations into general society in the premise that their lives would be improved. They have refused this obvious goal for 150+ years. They just won't join us and many have died while we tried. Perhaps another approach is required. This one does not work, obviously. Not only a different approach, but perhaps we should abandon the goal of assimilation.

And yet, that is what will happen, no matter the wishes of anyone. Canadian society, the multicultural fabric that it is, will march on. At some point, money pits in the middle of nowhere won't be tolerated any longer. Canada is a country of immigrants. That becomes more true every day, with immigrants that have no ties to the ills of the past.

Differences in law that existed in the past - the reviled Indian Act.

Yes, the act that should disappear, but can't because of the Royal Proclamation, 1763.

The current rebalancing has, and will continue to improve the conditions that resulted from genocidal laws, policies and practices.

There is zero evidence of that. Right now you have SCN in Manitoba flaunting the fact that they lost a court fight, blockading work on Bipole III. Their citizens have jobs and their communities are being compensated, and yet there they stand in the way of their own progress.

That's what tends to happen when people think that they are separate, superior, and above the law.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Smallc

[overthere]

That supposes that the natural progress of a society is predatory.

It's a modern conceit that humanity is anything but predatory. That does not mean all of us have to ignore reality or pretend otherwise.

And yet, that is what will happen, no matter the wishes of anyone. Canadian society, the multicultural fabric that it is, will march on. At some point, money pits in the middle of nowhere won't be tolerated any longer. Canada is a country of immigrants. That becomes more true every day, with immigrants that have no ties to the ills of the past.

That's just a rationalization for 'assimilate or die'.

Oh, and we absolutely do not require our other immigrants to assimilate. It may be in their financvial interest, but there is no requiremnt in multicultural Canada.

Except for those dirty drunk Indians who just refuse to either get with the program or die. At this point, it looks like die will happen long before we can bludgeon them into agreement. That may be your hope, but it sure as f** is not my Canada.

So lets summarize history in a few lines. 130 or so years of institutional paternalism, forced isolation to remote shitholes, generations of children taken from their families in a delibertae attempt to destroy their culture and lives and handouts have brought us to a situation where the native population is diseased, desperate, imprisoned, angry, dependent and poor in nearly every way imaginable.

And you reckon it's all their fault. Oh well.

What I see is a people not at the end, but at the very beginning of a new phase. It's a time of beginnings of self reliance, baby steps in self government, a new order in many ways. Personally, I don';t expect 600+ First Nations to suddenly be led by 600+ leaders on the level of Churchill or Gandhi. It's going to take a little time, and don't we owe them at least that much?

[eyeball]

We need a similar summary when discussing the path forward in the ME.

[overthere]

We need a similar summary when discussing the path forward in the ME.

Another thread perhaps.

We could call it The Final Solution.

[eyeball]

Way to politically loaded.

I'd call it the same thing we called it here, for the same reason...Truth and Reconciliation.

No need for a new thread, a lot of these themes intersect and overlap.

[Smallc]

It's a modern conceit that humanity is anything but predatory. That does not mean all of us have to ignore reality or pretend otherwise.

Humanity as it exists...exists though. To dream of a different path is to be naive.

That's just a rationalization for 'assimilate or die'.

Well, that has happened over and over again throughout history. It's a reality that has to be dealt with.

Oh, and we absolutely do not require our other immigrants to assimilate. It may be in their financvial interest, but there is no requiremnt in multicultural Canada.

If they don't, they'll fail, and they'll live terrible lives. Do you see where I'm going with this? No one is scything anything should be required, but that doesn't change the flow of society.

Except for those dirty drunk Indians who just refuse to either get with the program or die. At this point, it looks like die will happen long before we can bludgeon them into agreement. That may be your hope, but it sure as f** is not my Canada.

Now you're just exposing the bias in your position. If that's what you get out of what I wrote, you really aren't reading it.

So lets summarize history in a few lines. 130 or so years of institutional paternalism, forced isolation to remote shitholes, generations of children taken from their families in a delibertae attempt to destroy their culture and lives and handouts have brought us to a situation where the native population is diseased, desperate, imprisoned, angry, dependent and poor in nearly every way imaginable.

Most of those things were terrible injustice. That doesn't, again, change the flow of society.

And you reckon it's all their fault. Oh well.

Some of it is. Most of it is the fault of a system set up in a different time. The problem is that aboriginal leadership are the ones benefitting from that system, forcing their people to continue to live lives of poverty and hopelessness so they can collect large paycheques.

What I see is a people not at the end, but at the very beginning of a new phase. It's a time of beginnings of self reliance, baby steps in self government, a new order in many ways. Personally, I don';t expect 600+ First Nations to suddenly be led by 600+ leaders on the level of Churchill or Gandhi. It's going to take a little time, and don't we owe them at least that much?

The idea that aboriginal people should be kept separate, like children that can't partake in the modern world, is the worst kind of paternalism - the kind usually reserved for guilty left wingers who don't know any better. I'm sorry you feel you have to a ) hide your aboriginal identity and b ) join them in their path of hopelessness.

[Smallc]

I'll put it another way - my aboriginal fiancee is no different from me, and there's no reason for her to be treated differently. Different cultures co-exist every day in Canada, without special legal protection. The situation that aboriginals are in at current helps no one.

[cybercoma]

That's how all of this gets fixed. Just ignore race, as if it doesn't mean a thing.

Pretty simple when your race doesn't hold you back anywhere in Canada.

[Smallc]

ignore race, as if it doesn't mean a thing.

It doesn't. That's the point. If it does to some people, it shouldn't. It's funny, because you're actually the racist that thinks the poor little brown people need your protection....you just don't seem to realize it.

[Black Dog]

Not really. They have the worst outcomes of any group. Besides that I live this every day. I see the evicence.

Your premise is that the Indian Act and treaties are the cause of the poor outcomes for native people's. Your evidence is...the poor outcomes for natives. You're begging the question.

It doesn't. That's the point. If it does to some people, it shouldn't.

So race doesn't matter, except it does. Clear as mud.

It's funny, because you're actually the racist that thinks the poor little brown people need your protection....you just don't seem to realize it.

The real racist here is the person who denies race and racism is an issue (hint: that's you).

[Smallc]

Your premise is that the Indian Act and treaties are the cause of the poor outcomes for native people's. Your evidence is...the poor outcomes for natives. You're begging the question.

There are other reasons, certainly, but legal protection that treats Aboriginals as distinct is a huge problem. I don't expect you to understand, because you don't actually live with aboriginal people and do business with them and their governments every single day.

So race doesn't matter, except it does. Clear as mud.

Any conversation that has race as its basis is the wrong conversation.

The real racist here is the person who denies race and racism is an issue (hint: that's you).

I didn't say that racism was never an issue, I said that race isn't an issue. For someone that goes on and on about lack of reading comprehension....

Race isn't an issue because race is an outdated concept. Laws that treat people better, worse, or differently based on race are based on an outdated concept. People that treat others differently based on race are using an outdated concept. People that can't see anything but race are living in an outdated world.

[Black Dog]

There are other reasons, certainly, but legal protection that treats Aboriginals as distinct is a huge problem.

I'll ask again: what specific policies are you talking about?

I don't expect you to understand, because you don't actually live with aboriginal people and do business with them and their governments every single day.

LOL

Any conversation that has race as its basis is the wrong conversation.

Talking about reforming policies that were in large part founded on race on the one hand and then ignoring race on the other? Pretzel logic.

I didn't say that racism was never an issue, I said that race isn't an issue. For someone that goes on and on about lack of reading comprehension.... Race isn't an issue because race is an outdated concept. Laws that treat people better, worse, or differently based on race are based on an outdated concept. People that treat others differently based on race are using an outdated concept. People that can't see anything but race are living in an outdated world.

Race exists. Pretending it doesn't or that it doesn't matter is simply denying the world we actually live in.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Black Dog

[Smallc]

I'll ask again: what specific policies are you talking about?

Reservations

No property ownership on (most) reservations

A governing system that basically creates a king of a town

A governing system that allows a chief to also hold the position of councillor, having a vote and a tie breaking vote

A governing system that allows what basically is a mayor with some provincial powers to make in excess of $60K per year (the reserve nearest me has the chief making $60K per year - he's one of the lowest in Manitoba).

A system that allows for completely free medication leading to abuse of common drugs such as pain killers and anti depressants.

I could go on...

LOL

Yes, I'm sure your experience with reserves is far better.

Talking about reforming policies that were in large part founded on race on the one hand and then ignoring race on the other? Pretzel logic.

And those policies belong in the past, where they were created.

Race exists. Pretending it doesn't or that it doesn't matter is simply denying the world we actually live in.

It doesn't actually exist in the way that you think. Problems cropping from the outdated concept need to be addressed. There is only one race.

[cybercoma]

FFS, Smallc, colourblindness IS racism. It allows privileged assholes to pretend that there's no problem whatsoever, ignoring the problems that people of colour face every single day. It's all very nice that your native fiancee decided to marry you (since you keep bringing it up as though that means you understand racism better or something), but that doesn't all of a sudden mean that she doesn't face racism every single day she steps out into the world. Here you are saying her race means absolutely nothing, completely ignoring the bullshit she deals with every single day. Amazing.

Edited January 27, 2015 by cybercoma

[Smallc]

FFS, Smallc, colourblindness IS racism.

You repeating that over and over doesn't make it the truth. In fact, policies that see in colour are inherently racist, as is a world view that sees in colour.

It allows privileged assholes to pretend that there's no problem whatsoever,

Actually, it allows privileged assholes to look to a better future in which race is not a consideration.

It's all very nice that your native fiancee decided to marry you (since you keep bringing it up as though that means you understand racism better or something), but that doesn't all of a sudden mean that she doesn't face racism every single day she steps out into the world.

She doesn't. She dresses well, she's polite, and yes, she's brown. Now, I'm sure there's some old Nazi that hates her for being brown, but I don't see it here at all. People don't follow her in the store, the police let her go when she was caught with marijuana (white people come here to get high girls...go get high somewhere else so you don't have any trouble - I was there) and she was let go without a problem when her cousin was caught stealing and they were both detained for questioning. She just in fact, got a job from an all white council in our town, before she was eligible (being as she's about to become eligible). Her colour, since she stopped dressing like she was in the hood has played absolutely no role in her life. Maybe it was the way she presented herself before, and not her colour, eh?

Edited January 27, 2015 by Smallc

[Black Dog]

Reservations

No property ownership on (most) reservations

A governing system that basically creates a king of a town

A governing system that allows a chief to also hold the position of councillor, having a vote and a tie breaking vote

A governing system that allows what basically is a mayor with some provincial powers to make in excess of $60K per year (the reserve nearest me has the chief making $60K per year - he's one of the lowest in Manitoba).

A system that allows for completely free medication leading to abuse of common drugs such as pain killers and anti depressants.

I could go on...

Now, was that so hard?

Yes, I'm sure your experience with reserves is far better.

Logical fallacy: appeal to authority.

And those policies belong in the past, where they were created.

I'm sure there's arguments for reforming or even getting rid the Indian Act/treaties. You haven't made it though.

It doesn't actually exist in the way that you think. Problems cropping from the outdated concept need to be addressed. There is only one race.

And what way is that?