Argus Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Why are folks getting up in arms when we examine his entire legacy, both the good and the bad? It happens to all political leaders. Why is there such a fuss? Building a country is certainly part of his legacy. How is getting drunk a lot part of a legacy? It's part of who he was, I'll grant, you, but hardly a part of any legacy. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
guyser Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 How is getting drunk a lot part of a legacy? It's part of who he was, I'll grant, you, but hardly a part of any legacy.Hey its the Same way with Churchill. Not mentioning it would betray who he was. Amazing someone who drank so much could accomplish so much. Quote
Smallc Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Hey its the Same way with Churchill. Not mentioning it would betray who he was. Implying that it cheapens the rest of what he did though? Because that's where some of it seems to be going. Quote
guyser Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Implying that it cheapens the rest of what he did though? Because that's where some of it seems to be going.Some may be, some may be misinterpreted by others. But it is a fact and that gets lost on some. How does one tell the story of King and not mention he spoke to spirits? Quote
Keepitsimple Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Posted January 17, 2015 Some may be, some may be misinterpreted by others. But it is a fact and that gets lost on some. How does one tell the story of King and not mention he spoke to spirits? Sure it's a fact, and hardly hidden - but it's not the main storyline - it's just a footnote - a human foible against a giant contribution to the making of Canada. That gets lost on some. Quote Back to Basics
WestCoastRunner Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 I wasn't speaking to his drinking. I was speaking to his policies on the natives and the chinese. These are very much a part of his legacy. I really couldn't care how much he drank. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Wilber Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 I wasn't speaking to his drinking. I was speaking to his policies on the natives and the chinese. These are very much a part of his legacy. I really couldn't care how much he drank. More a legacy of the time. His views weren't unusual at all for his generation. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
WestCoastRunner Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 More a legacy of the time. His views weren't unusual at all for his generation. Well, that may be true, but it doesn't mean we ignore them and only focus on the heaps of accolades. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Smallc Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Well, that may be true, but it doesn't mean we ignore them and only focus on the heaps of accolades. It does mean though, that we should examine them in the context. As I already told you, judging history through the prism of the present is rather difficult. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 It does mean though, that we should examine them in the context. As I already told you, judging history through the prism of the present is rather difficult. Good god, and I said it's easy to judge history in the context of the times. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Smallc Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Good god, and I said it's easy to judge history in the context of the times. But you're not. By the context of the times, he wasn't a racist at all. Quote
Wilber Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) Well, that may be true, but it doesn't mean we ignore them and only focus on the heaps of accolades. How do you judge them though? Look how much our society's views on race, sexual orientation, women's roll's in society etc have changed in the last 50 or so years, never mind 150. Edited January 17, 2015 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
poochy Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Good god, and I said it's easy to judge history in the context of the times. So then you should agree that while his behavior seen through our eyes was abhorrent in some ways, in the context of his time it was normal, we are more enlightened, but that is irrelevant. He wasn't special in those ways, he was special in others, for example, playing a large role in the creation of this country. So because we should agree that in his time he wasn't much different than every other man we would also have to agree that judging him in particular for those beleifs, or using those beliefs as a way of detracting from his other much more special accomplishments is really a pointless thing to be doing. Which begs the question, why do it? Why must you, or anyone, do it? It comes across as more of a reflex than anything else. Quote
drummindiver Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 LOL wut. I don't understand the harm in pointing out that, in addition to a lot of significant accomplishments, this guy was also a scumbag. A scumbag? You mean like Mahatma Gandhi, a blatant racist (proven) or pedophile (jury still out). Churchill was also a drunken racist.-proven. How about Martin Luther King, who had loads of extra marital affairs. He spent the last night of his life with a woman that wasn't his wife. Abe Lincoln must have been a scumbag also. "Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man." He drank. As James Crumley famously said “Son, never trust a man who doesn’t drink because he’s probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They’re the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They’re usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they’re a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can’t trust a man who’s afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It’s damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he’s heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.” Quote
drummindiver Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Wait? Are you even Canadian? Again, the fact that someone isn't Canadian does not limit their involvement in this discussion. In these forums we are discussing Palestine, Israel, United States, Japan. Are you any/all of these things? No? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Abe Lincoln must have been a scumbag also. "Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man." Uh, no. Honest Abe is known to have not believed that Americans from Africa were not equal however the quote isn't his. In mid-May 1862, Lincoln received a paper from Reverend James Mitchell that laid out arguments for resettling the country's black population:60 Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n5p-4_Morgan.html Edited to add: another source http://tinyurl.com/AbeLincolnMisquote So this appears to be a misquote. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Again, the fact that someone isn't Canadian does not limit their involvement in this discussion. I too thought you were Canadian, based on misquoting Lincoln. Americans are usually better than Canadians at having a good grasp of their own history. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
drummindiver Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Hey Michael. What is the point of your post? Abe was a racist, you admit that. Many sites credit him with this quote. I know how left leaning you are, proven by your biased "moderating" skills, so I realize anything I say will offend you. So what is your point? You thought I was Canadian because I misquoted Lincoln? Sorry. Many other ppl believe this quote his. They must be Canadians also? And by this comment are you insinuating that being a Canadian is a bad thing?. Or are you trying to discriminate against me for being a Canadian who misquoted something? Seriously, what is your point? http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/top-5-racist-quotes-by-abraham-lincoln.203268709/ http://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/reminder-abe-lincoln-founder-of-republican-party-was-a-racist http://www.mcfloogle.com/2014/06/12/they-didnt-teach-this-lincoln-edition/ So, sorry if because of a plethora of contradicting evidence I misquoted Abe "The Racist" Lincoln. Thanks for edifying. As usual you are a lighthouse in my veritable darkness. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Hey Michael. What is the point of your post? Abe was a racist, you admit that. Many sites credit him with this quote. So you're saying many websites have incorrect information ? Ok. I think we like to have correct information on MLW. I know how left leaning you are, proven by your biased "moderating" skills, so I realize anything I say will offend you. I'm not offended. Sorry you don't think I'm objective. I try. So what is your point? You thought I was Canadian because I misquoted Lincoln? Yes, Americans on here such as BushCheney are usually pretty accurate when they speak about things American. Sorry. Many other ppl believe this quote his. They must be Canadians also? And by this comment are you insinuating that being a Canadian is a bad thing?. Or are you trying to discriminate against me for being a Canadian who misquoted something? Seriously, what is your point? You got it wrong, that's all. Live and learn, I say. I like being corrected when I'm wrong, because my knowledge of things improves. Thanks for edifying. As usual you are a lighthouse in my veritable darkness. You are welcome. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Keepitsimple Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Posted January 17, 2015 Let's not get hung up on Honest Abe - he was only one of four examples that Drummin provided. He's right in that Gandhi, Churchill and King were admired for their accomplishments - not overtly sullied by their flaws. Quote Back to Basics
Michael Hardner Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 Let's not get hung up on Honest Abe - he was only one of four examples that Drummin provided. He's right in that Gandhi, Churchill and King were admired for their accomplishments - not overtly sullied by their flaws. I think the measure of progressivity in an individual in a given era is the direction they were trying to take society, not their views in the context of the day. It is useful, though, to talk about those views in the scope of human progress. Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
Argus Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 I wasn't speaking to his drinking. I was speaking to his policies on the natives and the chinese. These are very much a part of his legacy. I really couldn't care how much he drank. His attitude towards the natives and Chinese was universal. You would have shared it had you been born in that time. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Keepitsimple Posted January 17, 2015 Author Report Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) It does mean though, that we should examine them in the context. As I already told you, judging history through the prism of the present is rather difficult. No kidding - it's almost impossible unless you truly embrace history as a learning experience and immerse yourself in it. As examples, it's easy to forget that women were not allowed to vote in Canada until 1918. First Nations had a "conditional" right to vote granted to them in 1867 - but they had to give up their Indian Status and Treaty rights - and did not gain full voting rights until 1960. I won't even bother to go into the Chines Head Taxes and Immigration Exclusion legislation that continued halfway through the 20th century. Such were examples that were "social norms" back in MacDonald's day. Sanctimonious arguments to the contrary are simply naïve if not disingenuous. Edited January 17, 2015 by Keepitsimple Quote Back to Basics
jacee Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) It does mean though, that we should examine them in the context. As I already told you, judging history through the prism of the present is rather difficult.Maybe "judging" history isn't the purpose.Maybe just learning history is, taking lessons and applying them to the present. http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/6453258 Maybe it's just a way of checking to see if we've learned the lessons. Anyone who thinks we will just swoon in adoration because John A is John A will be disappointed. But it is a learning opportunity, a teachable moment. Like this: During the famine, Sir John A. bragged that the Indigenous peoples were kept on the "verge of actual starvation" to curb any criticism that he was wasting tax dollars. . Edited January 17, 2015 by jacee Quote
Smallc Posted January 17, 2015 Report Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I'm still not sure what exactly you're trying to do. Yes, it was a different time. Aboriginals weren't seen as people and everyone was racist. Edited January 17, 2015 by Smallc Quote
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