Proportional Representation Discussion

[Yzermandius19]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

All the better, they are de facto allies against Confederation, and they are so smug that they will never conceive that they could be derailing themselves along the way.

With uber counterproductive enemies like this, who needs friends? Donald Trump Knows.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

With uber counterproductive enemies like this, who needs friends?

LOL!    The Millennials and their infantile hivemind are particularly useful, the most self defeating generation of all time

Realpolitik escapes them utterly, they are like lambs who bring themselves to the slaughter.

[Yzermandius19]

23 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

LOL!    The Millennials and their infantile hivemind are particularly useful, the most self defeating generation of all time

Realpolitik escapes them utterly, they are like lambs who bring themselves to the slaughter.

Wishful thinking is a helluva drug, reality can be harsh. So they'd rather live in world shaped by the former than the later, and hang themselves in the futile effort to enforce wishful thinking on reality.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Wishful thinking is a helluva drug, reality can be harsh, so they'd rather live in world shaped by the former than the later, and hang themselves in the futile effort.

All National Helicopter Mammy has to say is "ZOMG, that's an alt-right Russian Asset !!!"

And the Millennials rally around the militarized prison industrial complex which is going to profit from their incarceration and/or draft them to fight in some foreign military adventure.  

Cha-ching, thank you, come again, Millennials.

Sincerely,

The Vampire Squids.

 

[Yzermandius19]

5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

All National Helicopter Mammy has to say is "ZOMG, that's an alt-right Russian Asset !!!"

And the Millennials rally around the militarized prison industrial complex which is going to profit from their incarceration and/or draft them to fight in some foreign military adventure.  

Cha-ching, thank you, come again, Millennials.

Sincerely,

The Vampire Squids.

 

Realpolitik is too depressing for them, so as a defense mechanism, they cling to fairies and unicorns instead. Which they have mistaken for The Vampire Squids, simply because they are willing to blow sunshine up their ass and not tell them unpopular truths they don't want to hear, plus they have no attention span and are easily distracted by jingly keys.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Realpolitik is too depressing for them, so as a defense mechanism, they cling to fairies and unicorns instead.

Is that what it is?   Good lord, kids are so easily depressed these days, you'd think they were living though a holocaust.

Realpolitik is what makes things interesting.  Fairy's and Unicorns is a bore.

Niccolò Machiavelli knows.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Dougie93

[Yzermandius19]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Is that what it is?   Good lord, kids are so easily depressed these days, you'd think they were living though a holocaust.

Realpolitik is what makes things interesting.  Fairy's and Unicorns is a bore.

Niccolò Machiavelli knows.

They don't want interesting, they want nothing bad to ever happen in the world ever. They believe that government helicopter mommy can provide that for them, if they had their choice, they'd nerf the world, which is why they try to do that whenever possible.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

They don't want interesting, they want nothing bad to ever happen in the world ever, they want boring safety, and they believe that government helicopter mommy can provide that for them. If they had their choice, they'd nerf the world, which is why they try to do that whenever possible.

I suppose that's where PR comes in, you can't get anything done, but paralysis appears safer than endeavor.

Nobody can vote National Helicopter Mommy away, they can suckle at the teat forever, or so they surmise.

They get to have their participation trophy, without even having to leave the womb of leftist virtue.

It's about making everything "fair",  everybody gets their say, even if atrophy is the result.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Dougie93

[Yzermandius19]

18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I suppose that's where PR comes in, you can't get anything done, but paralysis is safer than endeavor.

They want a boring safe space where they need not listen to anyone who disagrees and no one tells them how impossible it is to achieve the utopia they envision. They view the government as a parent, and they grew up in an environment where the parents always tried to shelter them from the harshness of reality, which is why government helicopter mommy is their knee-jerk solution for every problem, because they never had to handle any on their own.

That's where PR comes in indeed, a safer space with less people being realpolitik and telling them their utopia can't happen, which they can't handle with a giant dose of cognitive dissonance. With PR there will also be more NPC's telling them what they want to hear and who also view government helicopter mommy as the "solution" to all the world's problems.
 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

They want a boring safe space where they need not listen to anyone who disagrees and no one tells them how impossible it is to achieve the utopia they envision. They view the government as a parent, and they grew up in an environment where the parents always tried to shelter them from the harshness of reality, which is why that is their knee-jerk solution for every problem. That's where PR comes in indeed, a safer space with less people being realpolitik and telling them their utopia can't happen, which they can't handle with a giant dose of cognitive dissonance.

Ah well, they become an asset therein, as those who chose safety over liberty will have neither, and that will bring this ignominious national parent down under its own bloated weight.

Cognitive dissonance indeed,  there's no safe space from your own inaction.

[Yzermandius19]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Ah well, they become an asset therein, as those who chose safety over liberty will have neither, and that will bring this ignominious national parent down under its own bloated weight.

Cognitive dissonance indeed,  there's no safe space from your own inaction.

Starving the beast through gluttony, resulting in consuming the entire food supply of the beast they are so dependent on. They are speeding up the slaughtering of their sacred cows, and they don't even know it.

The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money, Maggie Thatcher Knows.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money, Maggie Thatcher Knows.

Canada is the poster child. 

No Russian Czar nor Fascist Dictator is needed to take Canada down, Canada is simply dying of a lack of leadership.

No Iron Lady to take the hard decisions, thus everything has ground to a halt.

Atrophy has already set in, the Confederation is not being overrun by the Bad Orange Man or whomever, Canada has leftist cancer.

[Yzermandius19]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Canada is the poster child. 

No Russian Czar nor Fascist Dictator is needed to take Canada down, Canada is simply dying of a lack of leadership.

No Iron Lady to take the hard decisions, thus everything has ground to a halt.

Atrophy has already set in, the Confederation is not being overrun by the Bad Orange Man or whomever, Canada has leftist cancer.

Canada doesn't just have leftist cancer, Canada is the cancer, Confederation is Walter White.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

Canada doesn't just have leftist cancer, Canada is the cancer. Confederation is Walter White.

Literally the silliest country on earth, no other country sets out to defeat itself like Canada does.  

Canada's only enemy is Canada, but it's a mortal enemy, stabbing itself in the heart repeatedly now.

[Yzermandius19]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

Literally the silliest country on earth, no other country sets out to defeat itself like Canada does.  

Canada's only enemy is Canada, but it's a mortal enemy, stabbing itself in the heart repeatedly now.

When you have no enemies, there is no one to fight but yourself. Canada living under the protection of America, who has had no real challenger since the fall of the Soviet Union, has made it soft and looking for boogeymen to slay in it's own midst, hence it eating it's own.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

When you have no enemies, there is no one to fight but yourself. Canada living under the protection of America, who has had no real challenger since the fall of the Soviet Union, has made it soft and looking for boogeymen to slay in it's own midst, hence it eating it's own.

So tru.   We do have a Millennial niece, but she's an adventurer turns out, just couldn't abide the atrophy in Canada

Actually moved to South Korea, learned Korean, now working for a Korean company.

[Yzermandius19]

PR simply speeds up the process, the virtue signalling will be juicing hard on the Russian Gas, with less conservative enemies to fight. So the left will turn on itself all the more, calling anyone to the right of Fidel Castro a "White Supremacist Nazi" and doubling down on self-defeating derp.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

PR simply speeds up the process.

It's basically a Trojan Horse for parties which otherwise can't get elected, the Dippers and the Greens in the case of Canada.

With the Liberals, Dippers and Greens sharing power, conservatives are boxed out.

The only way the conservative West Bloc can ever win is if the East Bloc left splits

PR ensures that the left doesn't have to split, thus they rule with impunity.

PR just means a permanent Liberal Dipper Green coalition.

[marcus]

4 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

It's not paranoia if they are out to get you, and reality can be harsh.

It's paranoia.

Cons would have lost 4 seats and the libs would have lost 45. While the PPC would have gained 6 seats.

So if the Cons and the PPC mostly represent the rural people, then there would have been a gain in seats for them.

 

[Yzermandius19]

6 minutes ago, marcus said:

It's paranoia.

Cons would have lost 4 seats and the libs would have lost 45. While the PPC would have gained 6 seats.

So if the Cons and the PPC mostly represent the rural people, then there would have been a gain in seats for them.

 

One outlier does not disprove the rule. Best case scenario Conservatives win two extra seats with no PPC, still far short of a majority, under most scenarios they would lose more seats than they gain, and the left would not have to worry about vote splitting. Conservatives could never form a coalition that results in a majority government and the left could, that results in perpetual leftist rule with the occasional short lived soft as baby sh*t Conservative minority, that would have to cuck even harder to get anything done the Conservatives already do under FPTP.

It's not paranoia, it's math.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[marcus]

Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

One outlier does not disprove the rule. Best case scenario Conservatives win two extra seats, under most scenarios they would lose more seats than they gain, and the left would not have to worry about vote splitting, Conservatives could never form a coalition that results in a majority government and the left could.

You have a lot of assumptions and predictions that you want everyone to accept as facts.

[Yzermandius19]

37 minutes ago, marcus said:

You have a lot of assumptions and predictions that you want everyone to accept as facts.

Go look at all the past federal elections, and note how many would result in a Conservative majority under PR. These assumptions are based on the historical record that you are oblivious to.

Only 1984 would have been a Conservative majority since the NDP came along. 1958 would have been a Conservative majority, 1917 as well, and that's it. 

Only three instances of a Conservative winning the majority of the popular vote in Canadian federal election history, and since the NDP came along, it has only happened once, and will likely never happen again. Since 1984 the Conservatives have cracked 40% of the popular vote just once.

None of their extremely rare popular vote majorities would have been large majorities under PR, they would all have been by the skin of their teeth. It would almost always be a minority government that can't get anything done, or a coalition that never works in the Conservatives favor.

If Canada were to switch to PR, The Conservatives would never get a majority again, and majorities would be rare even for the Liberals, they'd have to cobble them together through a coalition most of the time. You just paralyzed the country and will subject it to so many more useless elections, great job.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[marcus]

1 hour ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Go look at all the past federal elections, especially any of them within the last 50 years, and note how many would result in a Conservative majority under PR, come back when you find even a single example. Bet you can't find even one since the NDP came along.

1984.

But that's not the point. The point I made is that you assume that you know who will form a coalition. You don't know, but you want people to take your assumptions and predictions as facts.

Under PR, parties outside of the big 2, which you lament regularly, will gain more power. I assume, since there is a better chance to win if you're not the big 2 (or 3), there will be more parties to choose from. Ideas outside of the usual will have more strength and more of a say. Like, for example, a party like PPC. Also, there would be less of a concentration on prioritizing what Quebec wants.

[Yzermandius19]

33 minutes ago, marcus said:

The point I made is that you assume that you know who will form a coalition. You don't know, but you want people to take your assumptions and predictions as facts.

Under PR, parties outside of the big 2, which you lament regularly, will gain more power. I assume, since there is a better chance to win if you're not the big 2 (or 3), there will be more parties to choose from. Ideas outside of the usual will have more strength and more of a say. Like, for example, a party like PPC. Also, there would be less of a concentration on prioritizing what Quebec wants.

Yeah, I'm sure the NDP and Greens will form a coalition with the Conservatives, and I'm sure the PPC would form a coalition with the left leaning parties, that's totally going to happen. It's all up in the air, there is no telling who the loser parties prefer, or who their voters prefer, no indication whatsoever. Definitely can't make any assumptions about that.
/sarcasm

Listen to yourself, you can't honestly believe the nonsense you peddle. There is no chance any party outside the big 2 wins, even under proportional representation, either the Liberals or Conservatives have won the popular vote in every Canadian Federal Election with zero exceptions, and no third party has even come close to changing that. There is only one exception where the Liberals or Conservatives didn't both finish in the top two of the popular vote in 1993, and that was with a split Conservative party.

Only one Conservative popular vote majority since the NDP came along, in 1984, when the Quebec popular vote went majority Conservative for one of the only two times in Canadian federal election history, both under Mulroney and never before or since. The Conservatives haven't won in Quebec since, and almost always lost in Quebec before that.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Yzermandius19

[eyeball]

23 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

In 1972, Bob Stanfield lost by about 100 votes. That is, if 100 voters in select ridings where the vote was extremely close, voted PC rather than someone else,  Premier Stanfield would have become Prime Minister, defeating Trudeau. 

Why would it matter if Standfield had lost by one vote?  What would have happened, civil war or something?

 

23 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Rather than PR, we should have run-off elections in ridings where the leading candidate does not have a majority.

I'd still just outlaw in-camera lobbying and see what happens.  Personally I think that's just about the only thing we need to do to fix what's mostly wrong with our governance.