jacee Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 What if they're drunk? You ask them, would you like a cup of tea, or would you like to take my Mustang to the gas station? If they say they want a cup of tea, you better not make them one, but if they take the Mustang to the gas station, well, then they know what they are doing. Maybe you should read the rest. I'm sure that's covered. Oh ... and ... if you give a drunk person the keys to your Mustang? You're too impaired to make tea. . Quote
Guest Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) Maybe you should read the rest. I'm sure that's covered. Oh ... and ... if you give a drunk person the keys to your Mustang? You're too impaired to make tea. . I'll risk getting scalded. Actually, you bring up a good point. If I'm drunk and I give the keys to the Mustang to another drunk, am I responsible for my actions? Edited May 13, 2015 by bcsapper Quote
jacee Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 I'll risk getting scalded. Actually, you bring up a good point. If I'm drunk and I give the keys to the Mustang to another drunk, am I responsible for my actions? Ask your insurance company. . Quote
Smallc Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 If you say, Hey, would you like a cup of tea? and they um and ahh and say, Im not really sure then you can make them a cup of tea or not, but be aware that they might not drink it, and if they dont drink it then this is the important bit dont make them drink it. They could say no. It would be far simpler. Quote
Smallc Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 Ask your insurance company. . Are drunk people responsible for their actions, or no? Quote
Smallc Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 You say, Hey, would you like a cup of tea? and they go, OMG, f*ck yes, I would f*cking LOVE a cup of tea! Thank you! Then you know they want a cup of tea. This rarely happens in my relationship anymore. Does this mean I'm raping my willing fiancee? Quote
cybercoma Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 Are drunk people responsible for their actions, or no?Are you actually suggesting that victims are responsible for being raped? Quote
Guest Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 Are you actually suggesting that victims are responsible for being raped? I can't let that go. How on earth could you even suggest such a thing? It cheapens the experience of rape victims to say that someone who wakes up after consensual sex saying "OMG what did I do last night?" has been raped. Quote
jacee Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 I can't let that go. How on earth could you even suggest such a thing? It cheapens the experience of rape victims to say that someone who wakes up after consensual sex saying "OMG what did I do last night?" has been raped. Considering how you denigrate and dismiss the issue of consent, I believe your grasp 'consensual' is pretty tenuous. . Quote
Guest Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 Considering how you denigrate and dismiss the issue of consent, I believe your grasp 'consensual' is pretty tenuous. . Could you elaborate on how I denigrate and dismiss the issue of consent? Other than my position that having consensual sex while drunk does not amount to rape. Is it your contention that having consensual sex while drunk does amount to rape? Quote
cybercoma Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 Has it never occurred to you that some guys get women drunk and high in order to force them into sexual encounters that they wouldn't otherwise consent to? Is it not a law that you cannot legally enter a contract when drunk or high because it impairs your judgment? How do you protect people from predators that get people drunk in order to lower their guard and force themselves on them? Quote
Guest Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) I don't know if that is a law or not regarding contracts, and I will bow to your knowledge on the subject. Anyone who gets a women drunk and high in order to force them into sexual encounters that they wouldn't otherwise consent to is raping them. I can't imagine thinking any other way, or where I have stated differently. But is having consensual sex while drunk turned into rape by regret is one question I would ask, even though that is not the original question I posed, which is why the law should accept that a drunk has no responsibility in this case when it most certainly will not do so in others. The same question could be asked about contracts, I suppose. Edited May 13, 2015 by bcsapper Quote
cybercoma Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 Regret doesn't make it rape. Consent can't be retroactively revoked. Quote
Guest Posted May 13, 2015 Report Posted May 13, 2015 But that's exactly my point. Not withstanding your example, what are the requirements for having sex when drunk? There are only two alternatives. 1) Consent can be given while drunk. 2) Drunk people can never have sex again. Quote
Argus Posted May 14, 2015 Report Posted May 14, 2015 (edited) An excellent clarification of consent: http://www.theloop.ca/this-woman-just-explained-consent-with-the-most-perfect-metaphor/ If youre still struggling, just imagine instead of initiating sex, youre making them a cup of tea. You say, Hey, would you like a cup of tea? and they go, OMG, f*ck yes, I would f*cking LOVE a cup of tea! Thank you! Then you know they want a cup of tea. Usually when I ask someone if they want a cup of tea they just say "Yes", or "Ok". Edited May 14, 2015 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted May 14, 2015 Author Report Posted May 14, 2015 My understanding is that the law generally accepts decisions made under "drunk" conditions as valid and allocates responsibility to the drinker. Drunk driving or breaking the law while drunk is not an acceptable defense. Drugging a person with a single drug could be argued. It can be administered without the knowledge of the victim. Drinking alcohol to the point of being drunk requires a person to have a number of drinks, I believe that the law leaves that responsibility to the drinker. The only exception I can see to that is waiters serving people who are obviously drunk and the person is later involved in an accident. The waiter or establishment is then allocated some responsibility. There may be cases where a waiter served an individual who was obviously drunk, that individual later claimed to have been raped and then the blame was allocated to the waiter or establishment - but I am not familiar with one. I am not sure just how far the law should try to protect people from themselves. I believe that we must begin to take some responsibility for our actions. Having an alcoholic drink with the possibility that you may have many more is a personal decision and I believe the person has to accept the consequences of that decision. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
H10 Posted May 14, 2015 Report Posted May 14, 2015 I do have a general question. What does the court do when two drunk people have sex and one allegedes rape? Both couldn't technically consent, so what happens? Quote
Big Guy Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Posted May 22, 2015 Dalhousie University has stated that all the students involved in that Dentistry students controversy will be allowed to graduate. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Bonam Posted May 23, 2015 Report Posted May 23, 2015 Has it never occurred to you that some guys get women drunk and high in order to force them into sexual encounters that they wouldn't otherwise consent to? Is it not a law that you cannot legally enter a contract when drunk or high because it impairs your judgment? How do you protect people from predators that get people drunk in order to lower their guard and force themselves on them? A man and a woman get drunk. They have sex. Both the man and the woman chose to get drunk. Both, to whatever extent they were able to make any decisions while drunk, decided to have sex. Why are the two treated differently under the law? If, the next day, the man accused the woman of raping him, would anyone take him seriously? Is there even the slightest chance of a conviction? Now swap the genders and ask the same question. Why is the answer different? Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law, including men and women. Quote
Bonam Posted May 23, 2015 Report Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) I do have a general question. What does the court do when two drunk people have sex and one allegedes rape? Both couldn't technically consent, so what happens? Easy. The court convicts the male, because men are evil predators and women are delicate innocent flowers. Edited May 23, 2015 by Bonam Quote
Big Guy Posted May 23, 2015 Author Report Posted May 23, 2015 I am impressed that the system of "restorative justice" appears to have worked out very well. The men involved have gone through some "sensitivity" training, have apologized for their actions and have admitted their misunderstanding of expected norms. They now go on to professional careers better off for the experience. The women involved appear to have been satisfied with the process. The University is happy with the outcome. There are no charges of breaking the law nor any pending law suites. There were many on the outside who were demanding expulsion for these students. That being the case then they would now be pursuing some other career with all kinds of law suites against the University. The women would be no better off and would be susceptible to harassment if/when having to testify in the courts. How many of them would have dropped out of that course? The University would be spending a lot of money fighting law suites and trying to validate this mass expulsion. How much money would have been wasted trying to find out just which participant posted what on the page and just how outrageous must a comment be to be grounds for expulsion. As I stated at the start, I am impressed by this "restorative justice" process and wonder why it is not applied in more situations. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Michael Hardner Posted May 23, 2015 Report Posted May 23, 2015 Easy. The court convicts the male, because men are evil predators and women are delicate innocent flowers. That's cynical. I don't think that there can be a strongly typed rule for these situations. This article outlines some of the problems pretty clearly: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/relationships/sex-on-campus-how-no-means-no-became-yes-means-yes/article21598708/?page=all Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted May 23, 2015 Report Posted May 23, 2015 A man and a woman get drunk. They have sex. Both the man and the woman chose to get drunk. Both, to whatever extent they were able to make any decisions while drunk, decided to have sex. Why are the two treated differently under the law? If, the next day, the man accused the woman of raping him, would anyone take him seriously? Is there even the slightest chance of a conviction? Now swap the genders and ask the same question. Why is the answer different? Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law, including men and women. You're assuming they're treated differently when they're not. You're making up some wild anecdotal fantasy to support your claims. Forgive me for not taking you seriously. Quote
Bonam Posted May 23, 2015 Report Posted May 23, 2015 You're assuming they're treated differently when they're not. If you really think men and women are not treated differently both in the court of law and in the court of public opinion, in this situation and most other situations related to sex, reproductive rights, family & marriage law, etc, all I can say is... Quote
cybercoma Posted May 23, 2015 Report Posted May 23, 2015 In the court of public opinion, obviously. The laws are applied equally. Quote
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