Ontario Teachers Potential Strike

[Big Guy]

Teacher working hours - Minimum is when they are in front of the classroom. Maximum - no maximum. Teachers are not a homogeneous collection of personalities. They are as diverse individuals as are lawyers and doctors. There are lawyers who do the minimum to stay in the firm and there are lawyers who put in the time required to represent their client to their high standard. There are doctors who will put in the minimal time as a member of a clinic and there are those who will see as many patients as are needed in an area, keep up with new discoveries in medicine and interact with the health system in the community.

The advantages for the individual who are lawyers and doctors as that their income will increase with their productivity. Teachers will be paid by their seniority and accreditations.

In teaching, the pay for those at the high end can be up to two and a half times more than the pay at the low end - but for two people teaching the same subject. For example - A first year teacher with minimal qualifications teaches grade 9 English and is paid A a year. In the same school, a teacher with maximum qualifications (degrees, specialties etc) with 35 years experience teaches grade 9 English and is paid 2.5A a year. These are extreme examples but indicates the potential range of pay scale.

Student evaluation is a large part of their responsibility. For example, an assigned 300 word History essay should take between 15 minutes to half hour to read, (sometimes translate) correct, make suggestions, correct punctuation and make notations, evaluate and record. For a class of 35 students that would take about 12 hours. A multiple choice test covering the same materials would take about half an hour to evaluate. Obviously, the essay is a far better tool which not only evaluates but also teaches. The test satisfies the curriculum. Some teachers assign essays, some teachers give multiple choice tests.

The effort the teacher makes in the classroom is therefore not motivated by the income. There are many different ways to teach and each requires work. Teaching is not an easy profession. You have to enjoy working with young people, be comfortable working with a group, be able to control your emotions and be prepared to stay current with new approaches. My recollection is that about one quarter of student teachers wash out during the practical teaching component of Teachers College and between 30 to 40 percent drop out of teaching within the first 5 years.

Many bright individuals who plan to teach find that after a practice teaching session, that the profession is not for them. For their own health they are encouraged to make other career choices.

I make no excuses for teachers. There are very good ones and there are very bad ones. I believe that you could bell curve their range of abilities and find it to be very similar to doctors and lawyers.

[Moonbox]

Too many low-information voters in this country.

That's putting it politely in socialist's case. Not concerned about debt...lol. He certainly fits the stereotype held in the financial industry that teachers are generally awful managers of their own personal finances. Knowing that the pension plan is always there (and subsidized by taxpayers) and that there's virtually no chance they can their jobs, it's spend spend spend all the way to retirement with no worrying about saving or about being debt-free.

[Moonbox]

Teachers are not a homogeneous collection of personalities. They are as diverse individuals as are lawyers and doctors.

Thank you for your (as usual) brilliant insight.

Teachers will be paid by their seniority and accreditations.

Thus there is no incentive to work harder. The bare minimum is enough.

For example, an assigned 300 word History essay should take between 15 minutes to half hour to read, (sometimes translate) correct, make suggestions, correct punctuation and make notations, evaluate and record.

A 300 word essay is less than a page and won't take more than 2 minutes to read. Unless you're dealing with a particularly dense student, cursory corrections and comments don't take more than another 2-5 minutes at most. Average class sizes are also nowhere near 35 Ontario and actually sit at around 25. With 4-8 minutes spent per student on a 300 word essay, we're looking at more like 1.5-3.0 hours spent marking for the entire class, which is something that usually only happens once or twice a semester.

(That paragraph was 91 words - Try telling me it took more than 20 seconds to read.)

Teaching is not an easy profession. You have to enjoy working with young people, be comfortable working with a group, be able to control your emotions and be prepared to stay current with new approaches.

So, aside from working with young people (which we can assume you're okay with if you went to Teacher's College), it's like any other job in the world?

My recollection is that about one quarter of student teachers wash out during the practical teaching component of Teachers College.

Cite it or don't say it, because I'd bet good money that this is categorically false and nowhere near the truth.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Moonbox

[Big Guy]

Why would anybody respond to such a rude, provocative and antagonistic post? I cannot think of a reason so I will not. Go find somebody else who wants to waste their time trading insults with you.

[socialist]

So in your opinion,a government can keep piling up debt and there are absolutely no consequences?

It's likely you're not aware that in Ontario,the interest payments on the debt exceed 10 billion dollars a year.It's the third largest expense for Ontario taxpayers after health care and education.

Ever hear what's happening in Greece,Portugal,Italy,Spain?

Too many low-information voters in this country.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/ontarios-debt-burden-just-keeps-on-growing/article11689508/

I've heard this many times from many other low information blowhards. Ontario will be like Greece...blah, blah, blah.

The ski is falling, ironside, THE SKY IS FALLING!!! There's debt, oh my!!! Fear mongers...I have no use for.

[socialist]

Thank you for your (as usual) brilliant insight.

Hey moonbox. Take a look at the number of posts you've made on this site compared to me. Now tell me who has more idle time on hand?

[AngusThermopyle]

Hey moonbox. Take a look at the number of posts you've made on this site compared to me. Now tell me who has more idle time on hand?

Oh socialist! You are just so brilliant and witty! Did it ever enter your mind to check when Moonbox joined as opposed to when you joined? Once again you display your unparalleled grasp of inanity and idiocy. Well done!

[socialist]

Oh socialist! You are just so brilliant and witty! Did it ever enter your mind to check when Moonbox joined as opposed to when you joined? Once again you display your unparalleled grasp of inanity and idiocy. Well done!

When did we join? Now get back to your teacher bashing session.

[Moonbox]

Hey moonbox. Take a look at the number of posts you've made on this site compared to me. Now tell me who has more idle time on hand?

When you make a comment like that socialist, you do two things:

1) You make it obvious how much you're struggling to avoid any discussion of facts. Our number of posts in no way demonstrate how much spare time we have, but it's all you have because you keep getting shut down and laughed at.

2) You're making yourself look stupid. Trying to ridicule how much time I spend posting here when it's clearly less than you is preposterously dumb. I've been here for 6 years. You've been here for 2. Do some basic math (clearly not your strength) and then go hide in a hole.

The type of deranged mental gymnastics your mind must go through to convince yourself that the above quote even resembles a rational thought is truly remarkable. If you're actually a teacher (highly doubtful now from what we've seen), we all truly pity your students.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Moonbox

[socialist]

When you make a comment like that socialist, you do two things:

1) You make it obvious how much you're struggling to avoid any discussion of facts. Our number of posts in no way demonstrate how much spare time we have, but it's all you have because you keep getting shut down and laughed at.

2) You're making yourself look stupid. Trying to ridicule how much time I spend posting here when it's clearly less than you is preposterously dumb. I've been here for 6 years. You've been here for 2. Do some basic math (clearly not your strength) and then go hide in a hole.

The type of deranged mental gymnastics your mind must go through to convince yourself that the above quote even resembles a rational thought is truly remarkable. If you're actually a teacher (highly doubtful now from what we've seen), we all truly pity your students.

Earlier you made a comment about the number of posts I make and tied it in with my job. You took a cheap jab, which is all guys like you have.

The stats with regards to # of posts is as follows:

Socialist - 1421

Moonbox - 3797

Maybe you aren't aware, but 3797 is larger than 1421.

[Ash74]

Earlier you made a comment about the number of posts I make and tied it in with my job. You took a cheap jab, which is all guys like you have.

The stats with regards to # of posts is as follows:

Socialist - 1421

Moonbox - 3797

Maybe you aren't aware, but 3797 is larger than 1421.

In all fairness arithmetic is not taught anymore in the 21st century education.

[Smallc]

In fairness, Moonbox does have 12 more posts per month on average. He's right though, that isn't a measure of free time.

[socialist]

In fairness, Moonbox does have 12 more posts per month on average. He's right though, that isn't a measure of free time.

I usually post after a hard day's work, or early in the morning. But you're right; moonbox making a big deal of my posts shows weakness.

[Michael Hardner]

There are several posts in the past page or so that are getting personal - stop it.

[Moonbox]

In fairness, Moonbox does have 12 more posts per month on average. He's right though, that isn't a measure of free time.

More like 2.5. I've been here 76 months. Socialist has been here for 30. Either way I did goof my original math though.

I usually post after a hard day's work, or early in the morning. But you're right; moonbox making a big deal of my posts shows weakness.

Except I didn't. You did, however, try making fun of me for mine when you spend pretty much the same amount. If anything, I may have mocked how much time you spend discussing a single subject, and how that subject happens to correspond with your profession and pay cheque. The fact that you don't substantiate anything you say just makes it more and more apparent that you're not here to have an intelligent discussion. You're here to whine and cry about how you think deserve more money without presenting ANY objective information about why.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Moonbox

[Smallc]

It seems I accidentally shorted you by a year.

[Argus]

Full day Kindergarten is awesome. but classes need to be smaller. More teachers need to be hired.

Actually, if it's to continue all the teachers should be fired, and Early Childhood Educators should be hired. They're much cheaper, and much better. That was the recommendation of the report which initially supported full day kindergarten, but the teachers union struck a deal to pay for millions of dollars in pro Liberal ads in exchange for McGuinty requiring teachers be given the jobs.

[Ash74]

Actually, if it's to continue all the teachers should be fired, and Early Childhood Educators should be hired. They're much cheaper, and much better. That was the recommendation of the report which initially supported full day kindergarten, but the teachers union struck a deal to pay for millions of dollars in pro Liberal ads in exchange for McGuinty requiring teachers be given the jobs.

How dare you accuse McGuinty of such deeds. He would have never made a deal like that for a few seats. Wait.....ooooops

[socialist]

More like 2.5. I've been here 76 months. Socialist has been here for 30. Either way I did goof my original math though.

Except I didn't. You did, however, try making fun of me for mine when you spend pretty much the same amount. If anything, I may have mocked how much time you spend discussing a single subject, and how that subject happens to correspond with your profession and pay cheque. The fact that you don't substantiate anything you say just makes it more and more apparent that you're not here to have an intelligent discussion. You're here to whine and cry about how you think deserve more money without presenting ANY objective information about why.

Count on the National Post to write a biased article based on assumptions.

Read the first comment that follows the article. It is written by a teacher in the trenches who cares about learners. She summed things up perfectly for those who have no clue what goes on in classrooms these days.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2015/01/05/kelly-mcparland-faces-with-debt-hobbled-government-ontario-teachers-unions-are-reduced-to-bluster/

[Michael Hardner]

... but the teachers union struck a deal to pay for millions of dollars in pro Liberal ads in exchange for McGuinty requiring teachers be given the jobs.

Kudos to you for providing inside information on this. I'd like to see the report... also any record of the inside deal you mention, as that's a little harder to prove.

[AngusThermopyle]

Kudos to you for providing inside information on this. I'd like to see the report... also any record of the inside deal you mention, as that's a little harder to prove.

Ahh! The old "you can't prove it so it didn't happen" argument. Nice. Given the nature of such dealings and their inherently unethical and possibly illegal nature do you really think such proof would be easily obtainable for just anyone to find? Your rebuttal is simplistic and, I have to say somewhat short sighted given that it dismisses any such possibility out of hand and discourages any discussion of that possibility.

[Michael Hardner]

Ahh! The old "you can't prove it so it didn't happen" argument.

1. I didn't say it didn't happen. It all seems likely.

2. In case you just joined MLW, calling for evidence to a back up a point is actually supported (mentioned in the rules too) as a normal practice.

If you don't believe me, then just accept it because Bigfoot handed it to me on a golden scroll on our space station casino last night.

Given the nature of such dealings and their inherently unethical and possibly illegal nature do you really think such proof would be easily obtainable for just anyone to find? Your rebuttal is simplistic and, I have to say somewhat short sighted given that it dismisses any such possibility out of hand and discourages any discussion of that possibility.

Again - I didn't say it didn't happen, just asked for a cite...

[AngusThermopyle]

And once again, do you really expect such a cite or, if you will, evidence to just be sitting around for any one to find and use? That's just not a realistic scenario by any measure.

[Michael Hardner]

And once again, do you really expect such a cite or, if you will, evidence to just be sitting around for any one to find and use? That's just not a realistic scenario by any measure.

Well, I expect a response of some kind indicating where the information came from. The idea that Wynne works behind the scenes to give teachers what they want amounts to a conspiracy theory if there is no evidence to back it up. The results, as are publicly known anyway, aren't so clear. The teachers gave up paid sick days, which is a huge net loss for them, and had other changes such as how new teachers are onboarded.

This board is about dialogue and discussion, which needs to be based on objective facts in order for us to get anywhere. It's not a cable news show where pundits and idealogues spin information to promote their point of view, facts be damned.

I have been labelled as pro-teacher, but I can acknowledge points that a union rep or government official will not, such as the political reality of teacher perks being worth more than what most workers receive. I also (in a different thread, I think) had my mind changed about the reality of typical teacher work hours in the year.