My high school teacher with Harper...

[Michael Hardner]

New teachers and more experienced educators are now coming to the conclusion that there is something seriously wrong with the teaching curriculum in Ontario public schools.

I agree with you and disagree with you. While there's no end to the wonder of the bureaucracy, and the silly things they come up with, there are some basics that aren't reflected in 3 X 3 = 9 that are being taught: team work and civic mindedness is part of it. The real world demands answers and skills, but you won't learn that in high school. Today's world needs more specific training which you can take for a year or two after high school, unless you're going to work in a job that needs innate social ability.

Many corporations are looking toward Mexico and China.

Really ? Since when ? Oh, right. 1988. Those jobs that are at risk of going have likely gone, or aren't going to be saved anyway. Video games are a brighter future than factory work by all measures, so should we get kids to play them in school ?

[Ash74]

http://www.bnn.ca/News/2014/10/24/Ford-scraps-potential-2-billion-investment-in-Windsor-Ont-sources-.aspx

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/the-future-looks-bleak-for-ontarios-manufacturing-sector/article16132219/

These are just two examples of Businesses leaving for cheaper labour and even cheaper taxes.

But I believe that is a different topic.

Education had a budget of 15.2 billion 2001-2002 it has been increased to 24.5 billion this year making it the biggest ticket item in the provincial budget next to health care.

Full day kindergarten has been a messy ordeal that is still being worked out.

Classrooms are over loaded and the numbers are hidden by adding another teacher so it can be said there is only 24 students in their class yet forty kids are in the same room.(Trying to find articles on this but have not had any luck, My youngest is in jk and I am using what I have witnessed when I pick her up).

The only reason we sent her to school so early is to learn those social skills that she was lacking. The structure was much needed and the good teachers have done amazing things very quickly. I wouldn't want that job and have nothing but respect for MOST of them.

I find it sad that teachers need a union as a voice. I despise unions. Not what they stand for but what they have become.

Teachers are human beings just like the rest of us and want that new smartphone or nicer car. Raises seem to calm down any labour dispute pretty quickly. Trinkets for the natives if you will.

[GostHacked]

Trys? Or did you mean tries. LOL

I could care less what you believe. You are wrong though. I am a teacher.

Spelling and grammar is not important, remember when you trotted that nonsense out?

[Ash74]

Spelling and grammar is not important, remember when you trotted that nonsense out?

Or knowledge. Don't forget how overrated that is.

[Mighty AC]

Or knowledge. Don't forget how overrated that is.

I don't want to defend a member that believes educators should be pushing social and political ideas on their students, but there is a point there. The goal of the education system is provide students with some base knowledge and the skills necessary to be independent learners. In the past data and knowledge were slow to obtain and so a great deal of time was spent memorizing facts that were deemed important. Information was thrown at students and we tested what stuck.

Now that information is instantly available, the old system of teaching no longer benefits our students. Thus, now we place more of an emphasis on skill development, particularly those involved in critical thinking and information processing, than knowledge accumulation. With instant information at our fingertips the ability to evaluate, process and incorporate the knowledge becomes paramount.

Unfortunately, the system is very slow to change. Even with modern technology most high school classes are still far too similar to what we would have experienced. The average lesson today will certainly contain more images, videos and computer applications, which are all beneficial, but lessons are sill primarily taught in a lecture style to the whole class and evaluations still over emphasize the regurgitation of facts. As slow as this change has been, at least it is moving in the right direction.

[Ash74]

I enjoy reading history. I can't remember dates and names but I enjoying learning about the events and the people who made those decisions.

I do agree lecturing is a mind numbing experience and in one particular event during a union steward training weekend I got up and walked out after two hours of endless political babble. I honestly could not tell you what the speaker was talking about because I drifted off.

I am not against trying new things that might help students learn. But too claim knowledge is over rated?

If a knowledge of history is over rated as stated than how are you going to get students to understand why we have a democracy?

Or how are we going to show teach them failures of our generation and our ancestors.

The crimes of the past can't be washed away by ignorance. For example slavery in the U.S.,concentration camps in NAZI Germany. How the Canadian government treated natives.Why for 500 years science stood still because of the fear of the church.

Much of the changes we see today in out gentler society has been brought on by generations of students that were taught these things because the knowledge was passed on in schools.

[Mighty AC]

I enjoy reading history. I can't remember dates and names but I enjoying learning about the events and the people who made those decisions.

...

If a knowledge of history is over rated as stated than how are you going to get students to understand why we have a democracy?

Or how are we going to show teach them failures of our generation and our ancestors

....

Much of the changes we see today in out gentler society has been brought on by generations of students that were taught these things because the knowledge was passed on in schools.

You missed my point, but your questions and statements here illustrate what's changing. Using your history example, education is trending towards de-emphasizing the dates and names, which is what was referred to as knowledge by Socialist. Instead students learn of the events and then are asked questions that require analysis. Was X justified given the circumstances? Why/Why Not? What would you have done differently? Dates can be looked up on a phone, however, analysis requires a deeper understanding of the topic. Students are starting to spend more time on the deeper questions and less on the regurgitation of dates, places and names.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Mighty AC

[Mighty AC]

Education is even trending away from summative evaluation for grades and towards formative feedback meant to improve individual skills. If this were to take hold it would be a huge leap forward.

[Big Guy]

To Mighty AC - I believe that you have the insight of an experienced teacher.

For years the job of the primary and secondary schools was the dissemination of facts and the memorization of the tools required to solve problems. To-day, we live in a world where a person can easily find out anything about anything that is not secret. I agree that the next step is what to do with this capability. The basic research techniques of the past can still be applied to-day with the cross-referencing and verifying of "facts" located on the net. This includes sourcing and evaluating the source (which has been in dispute here).

The next logical step is what do you do with that information? Once you have validated the authenticity of the information, do you put it into the "good" , "bad" or "more research needed" (nuanced) categories. The same problem solving techniques can still be applied to create a personal opinion. That opinion will be based on the order and importance that you place on the "facts" that are available. This is where family, background, culture, religion, health, associations (all personal to the individual student) play into the formula.

I believe that the danger exists when once the tools and the research basics have been covered that the teacher tries to get into the slotting of good, bad, or nuanced into the teachers subjective cubbyholes. This becomes especially difficult in areas like contraception, social theory, government policy and anything to do with relationships. Personally, I believe that these are the purview of the family.

It is the teacher who decides what the answer to "why/why not?" or "was the action justified" or the big one; "did the end justify the means". The teacher is supposed to grade those answers based on the research, presentation etc. but the teachers personal point of view will always influence the grading - and the grade will send a message to the student.

Can you imagine an assignment in a class of mixed minority and religious students on the validity of the invasion of Gaza by Israeli troops - to be evaluated by a Jewish teacher - by a Palestinian teacher.

Meanwhile, the business community bemoans the education systems inability to provide the necessary "working skills" that are need for the students to get and hold down a job.

Educational theory, followed by policy changes seems to rotate through 360 degrees every 25 years so I assume that "this too shall pass".

[socialist]

I don't want to defend a member that believes educators should be pushing social and political ideas on their students, but there is a point there. The goal of the education system is provide students with some base knowledge and the skills necessary to be independent learners. In the past data and knowledge were slow to obtain and so a great deal of time was spent memorizing facts that were deemed important. Information was thrown at students and we tested what stuck.

Now that information is instantly available, the old system of teaching no longer benefits our students. Thus, now we place more of an emphasis on skill development, particularly those involved in critical thinking and information processing, than knowledge accumulation. With instant information at our fingertips the ability to evaluate, process and incorporate the knowledge becomes paramount.

Unfortunately, the system is very slow to change. Even with modern technology most high school classes are still far too similar to what we would have experienced. The average lesson today will certainly contain more images, videos and computer applications, which are all beneficial, but lessons are sill primarily taught in a lecture style to the whole class and evaluations still over emphasize the regurgitation of facts. As slow as this change has been, at least it is moving in the right direction.

Your point is correct. We see eye to eye on education issues.

Why in the world would I need to memorize the capital of New Brunswick or even the geography of New Brunswick if I can just google it on my smartphone?

[Ash74]

Your point is correct. We see eye to eye on education issues.

Why in the world would I need to memorize the capital of New Brunswick or even the geography of New Brunswick if I can just google it on my smartphone?

I have taken at face value that you are indeed a teacher. But after that statement I do not believe a person with that kind of mindset would be responsible for teaching today's youth. If you are indeed a teacher than the education system is in beyond repair and we should just burn down the schools and keep the kids at home. wow

[Ash74]

You missed my point, but your questions and statements here illustrate what's changing. Using your history example, education is trending towards de-emphasizing the dates and names, which is what was referred to as knowledge by Socialist. Instead students learn of the events and then are asked questions that require analysis. Was X justified given the circumstances? Why/Why Not? What would you have done differently? Dates can be looked up on a phone, however, analysis requires a deeper understanding of the topic. Students are starting to spend more time on the deeper questions and less on the regurgitation of dates, places and names.

Ok I think we are almost on the same side of this but my point using the history concept how is knowing an event not knowledge?

Dates and names may not be important but knowing the events is knowledge. Knowing the horrors of our past and the accomplishments are important.

I believe it also adds to the moral aspect by showing what vile things we have done and the shame we feel for them.

[socialist]

I have taken at face value that you are indeed a teacher. But after that statement I do not believe a person with that kind of mindset would be responsible for teaching today's youth. If you are indeed a teacher than the education system is in beyond repair and we should just burn down the schools and keep the kids at home. wow

What are you talking about. Education is no longer a game of trivial pursuit. Knowing the capital of NB does not help me think critically. I don't need to collaborate to find out the capital of NB. Collaboration and critical thinking are 2 Cs of 21st Century Skills. Yes, it is the 21st Century.

[Ash74]

Maybe I don't want to see my kids on a show called "Speaking to Canadians" where the next generation can't tie their shoes or tell you what the capitol of their province is.

I got a question for you. Why not extend the school year?

Teachers are paid for a full year why not step it up in line with European countries?

Summers off seems like a silly thing in this day and age so why not have the kids go all year around?

It would give more time to teach as well as help all the working families save on day care.

Sure teachers may not like losing July and August off and we could easily cut the Christmas break down to a week. Hold on. A winter break I mean. Don't want to say the "C" word.This is after all the 21st Century.

[socialist]

Maybe I don't want to see my kids on a show called "Speaking to Canadians" where the next generation can't tie their shoes or tell you what the capitol of their province is.

I got a question for you. Why not extend the school year?

Teachers are paid for a full year why not step it up in line with European countries?

Summers off seems like a silly thing in this day and age so why not have the kids go all year around?

It would give more time to teach as well as help all the working families save on day care.

Sure teachers may not like losing July and August off and we could easily cut the Christmas break down to a week. Hold on. A winter break I mean. Don't want to say the "C" word.This is after all the 21st Century.

You're right. Christmas has been replaced by winter holidays as public schools promote inclusiveness. I suppose you have a problem with that.

[Ash74]

You're right. Christmas has been replaced by winter holidays as public schools promote inclusiveness. I suppose you have a problem with that.

A rose by any other name......

Sorry that is Shakespeare. Not of the 21st century but something I believe is worth knowing.He has some great lines. Will be sorry if that knowledge fails to pass down.

[Mighty AC]

Ok I think we are almost on the same side of this but my point using the history concept how is knowing an event not knowledge?

It is knowledge, but that is the word that socialist chose. Data may have been a better word.

[Ash74]

It is knowledge, but that is the word that socialist chose. Data may have been a better word.

Fair enough. I can't argue that. I have no retaining skills with dates.Never had.

[Mighty AC]

The next logical step is what do you do with that information? Once you have validated the authenticity of the information, do you put it into the "good" , "bad" or "more research needed" (nuanced) categories.

The critical thinking and evaluation skills necessary to perform these tasks are now more important and needed earlier. Kids are learning to vet sources and question everything at much younger ages.

It is the teacher who decides what the answer to "why/why not?" or "was the action justified" or the big one; "did the end justify the means". The teacher is supposed to grade those answers based on the research, presentation etc. but the teachers personal point of view will always influence the grading - and the grade will send a message to the student.

Teachers are human but the vast majority remain objective while grading open ended questions. Most writing assignments are also accompanied by marking guidelines (rubrics) which spell out how each aspect will be graded. When bound by a grading framework it is easier to avoid subjective additions or deductions.

Educational theory, followed by policy changes seems to rotate through 360 degrees every 25 years so I assume that "this too shall pass".

New educational initiatives can be like pendulums. They typically swing to far in either direction before settling somewhere in the middle. Though theory may change rapidly, it is offset by the fact that practical change in the classroom itself moves at a glacial pace.

[WestCoastRunner]

The critical thinking and evaluation skills necessary to perform these tasks are now more important and needed earlier. Kids are learning to vet sources and question everything at much younger ages.

This is one of the most important skills that a teacher can pass on to a student. It is too easy to follow and accept the status quo but it takes courage, insight and curiosity to challenge absolutely everything.

[Michael Hardner]

I do think there are some data points that people should know. If you don't know the capital of the country, or who is in power how civic minded are you ? How can you be expected to vote ?

[Mighty AC]

I do think there are some data points that people should know. If you don't know the capital of the country, or who is in power how civic minded are you ? How can you be expected to vote ?

Of course. Students do pick up some required base knowledge, but the emphasis has just shifted, a little, from memorized facts towards a broader skill set. In every course, while learning the specific content, educators must now create opportunities for students to also use and develop their creativity, collaboration, critical thinking, analysis, communication and problem solving/identifying skills.

Science students should know what an amino acid is, what a functional group is and why they are important...but they shouldn't have to memorize and identify the structures of all of them. What's the point?

In the past a high school math or physics class would force student to memorize the necessary formulas. But what are were testing there? A student's ability to solve problems or their memory? Now we (should) allow them to look up information and test their ability to use their tools to identify and solve problems.

[GostHacked]

Students are starting to spend more time on the deeper questions and less on the regurgitation of dates, places and names.

But the time, places and names provide the backdrop for whatever it is you are learning. For proper analysis, those things need to be known in order to ask the deeper questions.

[GostHacked]

Science students should know what an amino acid is, what a functional group is and why they are important...but they shouldn't have to memorize and identify the structures of all of them. What's the point?

Efficiency. Progress is slowed by having to look up stuff that should be on the top of your head.

[Mighty AC]

But the time, places and names provide the backdrop for whatever it is you are learning. For proper analysis, those things need to be known in order to ask the deeper questions.

Those things are known at the time they are needed and the big picture is retained simply by being immersed in the material. However, what is the point of drilling and testing memorized facts? Think of all the multiple choice, data based questions that we had to answer... Now think about what those questions tell you about a students knowledge of the big ideas for that course. Nothing. If an answer can be Googled in a few seconds it shouldn't be tested.

Efficiency. Progress is slowed by having to look up stuff that should be on the top of your head.

Do you remember all the math equations used in high school? Me neither. I can and do look them up as needed though. If you force students to memorize equations, they will soon be forgotten and you won't be able to tell if a student couldn't solve the problem or simply couldn't remember the formula. Since, it's the actual problem solving skills we care about, it makes sense to allow students to look them up on a formula list.