Shots Fired On Parliament Hill

[dre]

However, as to the REAL danger issue, I'm sure most if not all victims of terrorism would be more than happy to be brought back to life and have their speech restricted, if they were given the choice.

Yes and Im sure that people hit by cars would be happy to be brought back to life and have their automobile use restricted as well.

In any case like I definately worry about irrational decision making by governments when legislation is made during a crisis. But whats scary here, is that it took so little for the government to recommend slashing away at our rights. Its like they were a fox staring through the fence at the chickens with saliva drewling down their chins... just waiting for a chance...

[Guest]

They probably would, but then, no-one would argue that using a car is more dangerous than being hit by one.

I definitely agree with you about the speech thing.

[cybercoma]

Consider the source - the media will always try to take comments and try to sensationalize them. After going through the trauma of the past week - of course people and politicians will throw ideas on the table to consider - everything can be considered - but what ends up in legislation is usually a completely different animal - and is often watered down even more in committee.

A fair point, but I can't believe someone would honestly humour the suggestion. It's a violation of people's fundamental rights. The language as its been presented is way too vague. "Terrorism" has been extended to many different things like domestic protests. "Condone" is an even more vague term that would have to be strictly defined. But you're right, those things would need to be hashed out before legislation is presented and the final product could be vastly different.

[cybercoma]

Meanwhile, thousands of people have died just this year alone, directly at the hand of people specifically citing Allah as the their inspiration.

But ya, the odd group killed here and they over the last 15 years is definitely comparable! Get a clue.

In Canada!? Thousands of people are dying in the middle east over political struggles from the vacuum left in Saddam Hussein's wake. And not to mention the thousands of innocent people who have died at the hands of the West in the War on Terror.

Edited October 24, 2014 by cybercoma

[WWWTT]

This attack was less about Jihadist terrorism and more about mental health and addiction issues.

So.... will Harper put as much effort into mental health and make some speeches about how mental health will be the gov't's top priority? That would save more Canadian lives than dropping a few bombs in Syria.

Seems to be an oddly high number of mentally ill Muslims for some reason.

White shooter=mental health issues

Muslim shooter=terrorist (new key word radicalized!)

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

No, but you can get them help when they plead for it. Crazy people who are addicted to crack who ask for help should be able to get some help in this country before they do something really crazy (e.g. kill people).

There was plenty of opportunity for the authorities to get this person help.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/24/michael-zehaf-bibeau-a-crack-addict-who-tried-to-rob-mcdonalds-so-he-could-go-clean-in-jail-records-show/

Good link by the way!

WWWTT

[dre]

They probably would, but then, no-one would argue that using a car is more dangerous than being hit by one.

I definitely agree with you about the speech thing.

Privacy and free speech are the same thing. You cant have free speech in a surveillance state.

And the scary thing is this is a slippery slope. Theres no way in a free society to stop an individual from commiting these kinds of acts. What that means is that even if they give police a bunch of new powers, and strip us with some of our rights its just a matter of time until it happens again... and when it happens again the irrational reactionaries will say the same thing again... "Police need more powers".

This kind of irrational histeria can do real damage to a society over time.

The fear-dumb and their liberty are easily parted.

[Big Guy]

We have always had bigoted fear mongers and will continue to have them. This board is no exception.

We can always build on this xenophobia.

First we get the people really riled up so that we can get somebody really strong to head our government and slowly allow him as much power as he needs. Then we can force those who are Muslims to wear the star and crescent badges on their shirts. Then we paint those stars and crescents on their houses and businesses so the "good" people will know who they are. Then we take over their businesses, homes and assets and we could round them up into groups and place them into concentration camps. Then we could .....

We are supposed to learn from the mistakes of history.

[Guest]

Privacy and free speech are the same thing. You cant have free speech in a surveillance state.

And the scary thing is this is a slippery slope. Theres no way in a free society to stop an individual from commiting these kinds of acts. What that means is that even if they give police a bunch of new powers, and strip us with some of our rights its just a matter of time until it happens again... and when it happens again the irrational reactionaries will say the same thing again... "Police need more powers".

This kind of irrational histeria can do real damage to a society over time.

The fear-dumb and their liberty are easily parted.

Privacy and Free Speech are not the same things. I can watch you ranting on about anything you want, but only step in when you decide to act upon your beliefs.

I do agree there is no way to stop these things from happening, but there's nothing wrong with keeping an eye on those most likely to do them in the event you might be able to step in during the thoughts to actions process.

Irrational hysteria would do a lot of damage, but rational prudence won't.

[Guest]

We have always had bigoted fear mongers and will continue to have them. This board is no exception.

We can always build on this xenophobia.

First we get the people really riled up so that we can get somebody really strong to head our government and slowly allow him as much power as he needs. Then we can force those who are Muslims to wear the star and crescent badges on their shirts. Then we paint those stars and crescents on their houses and businesses so the "good" people will know who they are. Then we take over their businesses, homes and assets and we could round them up into groups and place them into concentration camps. Then we could .....

We are supposed to learn from the mistakes of history.

Well, we could do that, but it would be wrong.

Better to just keep an eye on people and catch them before they do anything criminal, and send bombers overseas to kill the people who are doing the kinds of things you describe in your post. That much we learned well enough from history.

[Accountability Now]

No, but you can get them help when they plead for it. Crazy people who are addicted to crack who ask for help should be able to get some help in this country before they do something really crazy (e.g. kill people).

There was plenty of opportunity for the authorities to get this person help.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/24/michael-zehaf-bibeau-a-crack-addict-who-tried-to-rob-mcdonalds-so-he-could-go-clean-in-jail-records-show/

Good link. I have been wondering what this guy's actual motive or plan of attack was after watching the video. If he was intent on a massive killing spree then he had numerous opportunities to do so along his path. There were people on the pedestrian entrance. There was the driver in the Minister's car. There were people along the entrance to Centre Block. I would have assumed he could have done some damage that way if he wanted to. I know nothing about guns so perhaps he knew that he had one or two shots and he was saving them for a notable face.

[Derek 2.0]

Privacy and Free Speech are not the same things. I can watch you ranting on about anything you want, but only step in when you decide to act upon your beliefs.

I do agree there is no way to stop these things from happening, but there's nothing wrong with keeping an eye on those most likely to do them in the event you might be able to step in during the thoughts to actions process.

Indeed, no real difference between now and several decades ago when those vocally supportive of Communism were investigated to varying degrees, with the vast majority of cases resulting in nothing.......The difference today, quite clearly is the internet and the allowances in exchanges of information/ideas etc......

I doubt any restrictions will be enacted that would prevent an individual from communicating "support" of radical Islam or the violent actions carried out by it followers, but I fully expect said people will be looked at further to determine if they are a threat.

[jbg]

White shooter=mental health issues

Muslim shooter=terrorist (new key word radicalized!)

WWWTT

Why does common sense take a holiday?

[The_Squid]

Seems to be an oddly high number of mentally ill Muslims for some reason.

cite please

[Derek 2.0]

Well, we could do that, but it would be wrong.

Better to just keep an eye on people and catch them before they do anything criminal, and send bombers overseas to kill the people who are doing the kinds of things you describe in your post. That much we learned well enough from history.

Exactly, Kevin Vicker or the QPP didn't end their recent incidents by providing humanitarian aid to the victims of the attackers, likewise they didn't wait for someone else to deal with these attacks, nor did they ignore said attacks well engaging in self-flagellation over alleged past wrong doing to said attackers..........

[Guest]

This kind of thing embarrasses and upsets me. Why is it so hard for some people to understand the disconnect between those who commit the crimes, and those who do not.

Good for the Mayor with his comments.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/go-home-sprayed-on-exterior-of-mosque-in-cold-lake-alta-1.2811968

I can't read the rest of that "You are Home" sign, but I hope that was a message of support from the neighbours.

Edited October 24, 2014 by bcsapper

[waldo]

Seems to be an oddly high number of mentally ill Muslims for some reason.

why reply to my post with that tripe?... I didn't say word one about mental illness. Since you said it, to you, how many is "oddly high"?

[Derek 2.0]

This kind of thing embarrasses and upsets me. Why is it so hard for some people to understand the disconnect between those who commit the crimes, and those who do not.

Good for the Mayor with his comments.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/go-home-sprayed-on-exterior-of-mosque-in-cold-lake-alta-1.2811968

Indeed, I think positive engagement with the Muslim community by the Government is whats needed, with the understanding that it is a two-way street.......It is in the Muslim communities best interest to work with Government in routing out any radical, violent groups from within.

[dre]

Privacy and Free Speech are not the same things.

Yes they are. To really have free speech you need to be able to choose the audience. If the government has a microphone in your house and is recording everthing you say to possibly use against you, then most people are not going to speak "freely".

Surveillance ends up having the same impact on speech as censorship. You cant separate those two concepts.

[dre]

Indeed, I think positive engagement with the Muslim community by the Government is whats needed, with the understanding that it is a two-way street.......It is in the Muslim communities best interest to work with Government in routing out any radical, violent groups from within.

Reaching out to citizens is always a good idea, but the real key here is stop killing muslims on the other side of the world. If we keep doing that, theres absolutely no doubt these kinds of problems are going to get much worse.

[Argus]

Yes I imagine if we started bombing the Vatican we would have all kinds of problems.

Did we bomb mecca without anyone telling me? Didn't we bomb the Serbs at one point? Didn't we shoot a bunch of Greeks during some peacekeeping mission? Canadian Christians are not going to tear their hair out and start killing people because the country we're acting against happens to be Christian.

Evidently, Muslims are not quite so sanguine about such things.

[Argus]

Yes and Im sure that people hit by cars would be happy to be brought back to life and have their automobile use restricted as well.

In any case like I definately worry about irrational decision making by governments when legislation is made during a crisis. But whats scary here, is that it took so little for the government to recommend slashing away at our rights. Its like they were a fox staring through the fence at the chickens with saliva drewling down their chins... just waiting for a chance...

Better get back to your bunker and hide! Dat dem gubernment comin' to git you, boy!

[waldo]

Man, I hope all the other folk with no prospects don't decide to go off shooting people, or we're screwed.

gee you're clever! I also mentioned the guy's long history of substance abuse, homelessness, petty crime, joblessness... you can stuff your curt dismissal of a legitimate question/thought as to, effectively, what level of desperation brings someone to the point of so-called "self-radicalization". In my broad summation of the guy, I purposely left out any questioning of his mental faculties... since todate, I've personally not read/heard anything in that regard.

[Argus]

Privacy and free speech are the same thing. You cant have free speech in a surveillance state.

You paranoid types with your desperate fear of the government. Just what is it you're doing, dre, that you think the government would have the least bit of interest in? Funding mideast groups by any chance?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Argus

[Derek 2.0]

since todate, I've personally not read/heard anything in that regard.

I recall reading in the media blitz, court documents obtained (by CBC IIRC) showed that he was given a mental assessment prior to one of his latter (Robbery/uttering threats?) trials, and determined mentally fit.