Palestinian Unity Government

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada does have its own foreign policy, including a free trade agreement negotiated with Israel long before PM Harper came along. Canada does not have a free trade agreement with Iran...or Palestine.

Edited January 4, 2015 by bush_cheney2004

[jacee]

1-surrender its right to be a Jewish state.

Why would Israel want to do that?

2-surrender its right to defend itself against Hamas, Fatah or any other terrorist organization or nation that

remains in a declared state of war with Israel and refuses to recognize its right to live in peace as a Jewish state.

Why would Israel do that?

Did you really need that clarified?

It is entirely unnecessary to freak out inanely just because Palestine becomes a state. It's inevitable.

You just makes Israel look stupid, like a 2 year old having jealous hissy fits because someone else gets what he has.

I hope there are more intelligent minds involved. You don't present a good image of Israel here.

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[Rue]

Jacee when you engage in references that question my intelligence, describe me as freaking out, having hissy fits and making Israel look stupid you simply make it clear you have no position to present in debate so will attack me personally with the indirect gratuitous comments.

Likewise the tactic of asking me why Israel want to surrender its right to be a Jewish state is clearly not a point either I or JBG made and so your asking it as if either one of us suggested it is silly.

Now how about the name calling you actually finish what you started?

1. Please explain why its inane for Israel not to be able to enter into a peace agreement with parties whose constitutions and leaders call for its destruction as a Jewish state and the murder of Jews worldwide, not just Zionist Jews or Israeli Jews.

2. Please explain how it would be intelligent for Israel to move back to 1967 borders with no assurance of terrorists being disarmed first? How is it intelligent to allow your enemies to move closer to better be able to kill you?

See its easy for you to name call Jacee. What you won't do though is acknowledge Hamas' constitution or that it is at war with Israel as are over 200 other cells of terrorists. You won't discuss Mr. Abbas' position that he will only recognize Israel if it stops being Jewish by taking in any Muslim who self proclaims himself or herself Palestinian and gives them automatic citizenship.

That you won't discuss or even acknowledge.

What you did though is tell me in one response Hamas is a freedom fighting organization. You know what its constitution says. You know what it calls for and yet you refer to it as freedom fighting?

Please explain how its constitution that demands its people conform to a narrow and particular version of Islam offer them freedom?

How has Hamas provided Palestinians freedom to date by taking their aid money and food? How does building tunnels to attack Israeli citizens free Palestinians?

Can you even attempt to answer just one of those questions or do you think debate on the Middle East is just a matter of coming on this forum and launching some indirect name calling?

You get what you give only I am no longer interested in the little snipes and insults.

I am interested in having an intelligent discussion and having you suggest its intelligent to do what you suggest for Israelis is for me absurd. It reflects your own bias but inability to explain your bias.

All I see is a very rigid black and white position that Israel must stop being Jewish from you with no mention of what happens to the Israeli Jews. Not one reference.

[Bonam]

How can Israel excuse and rationalize withholding funds belonging to the Palestinians because the Palestinians dare to exercise their right to apply to join the ICC?

Why does Israel owe the PA any funds to begin with? If the PA wants to tax people, why don't they go and do it themselves? You know, since they want to be a sovereign state and all.

[jacee]

Why does Israel owe the PA any funds to begin with? If the PA wants to tax people, why don't they go and do it themselves? You know, since they want to be a sovereign state and all.

I'm sure they will when it's all worked out, but this is the agreement in place at present.

Question is why did Israel want control of Palestinian money.

Oh wait ... the answer's obvious ... so they can blackmail Palestinians by illegally witholding their own money.

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Edited January 4, 2015 by jacee

[jacee]

Jacee when you engage in references that question my intelligence, describe me as freaking out, having hissy fits and making Israel look stupid you simply make it clear you have no position to present in debate so will attack me personally with the indirect gratuitous comments.

I was talking about Israel's childish hissy fit - threatening to steal Palestinian money to punish them for going to the ICC, which Palestine has every right to do.

Likewise the tactic of asking me why Israel want to surrender its right to be a Jewish state is clearly not a point either I or JBG made and so your asking it as if either one of us suggested it is silly.

One of you did.

Now how about the name calling you actually finish what you started?

1. Please explain why its inane for Israel not to be able to enter into a peace agreement with parties whose constitutions and leaders call for its destruction as a Jewish state and the murder of Jews worldwide, not just Zionist Jews or Israeli Jews.

Because Israel has to live next to them and wants to negotiate a peaceful existence for its people?

2. Please explain how it would be intelligent for Israel to move back to 1967 borders with no assurance of terrorists being disarmed first? How is it intelligent to allow your enemies to move closer to better be able to kill you?

Disarm when Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians without regard for innocents?

Don't be ridiculous. Every state has a right, a responsibility to arm itself to defend its citizens.

See its easy for you to name call Jacee. What you won't do though is acknowledge Hamas' constitution or that it is at war with Israel as are over 200 other cells of terrorists. You won't discuss Mr. Abbas' position that he will only recognize Israel if it stops being Jewish by taking in any Muslim who self proclaims himself or herself Palestinian and gives them automatic citizenship.

That you won't discuss or even acknowledge.

What you did though is tell me in one response Hamas is a freedom fighting organization. You know what its constitution says. You know what it calls for and yet you refer to it as freedom fighting?

You are imagining that.

Please explain how its constitution that demands its people conform to a narrow and particular version of Islam offer them freedom?

How has Hamas provided Palestinians freedom to date by taking their aid money and food? How does building tunnels to attack Israeli citizens free Palestinians?

Can you even attempt to answer just one of those questions or do you think debate on the Middle East is just a matter of coming on this forum and launching some indirect name calling?

You get what you give only I am no longer interested in the little snipes and insults.

I am interested in having an intelligent discussion and having you suggest its intelligent to do what you suggest for Israelis is for me absurd. It reflects your own bias but inability to explain your bias.

All I see is a very rigid black and white position that Israel must stop being Jewish from you with no mention of what happens to the Israeli Jews. Not one reference.

Such horsesh!t Rue. I never said any of that.

Israel can be Jewish if it wants, but this pathetic grovelling to other countries mewling for permission to do so is ridiculous.

Nobody is disarming and nobody is deciding what kind of state Israel wants to be except Israel itself.

Those two poison pills betray Israel's lack of genuine committment to peace.

But I have faith in people and I believe the Israeli people will influence their leadership toward genuine peace efforts, since their current leadership is making Israelis look like idiots.

You are a hardliner, and you will never be among those who finally do bring peace to Israel. You are part of the problem, not the solution.

Having you make up things I never said, and failing to respect what I have said has hardened my words and my attitude toward Israel. I admit that.

Is that what you are trying to accomplish?

Maybe you and jbg are the 'anti-Israel' lobby here, because your approach is certainly having the effect of turning moderates against Israel.

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Edited January 4, 2015 by jacee

[GostHacked]

Overall I think the question of recognizing Israel as a JEWISH state is irrelevant. All that one needs to recognize is that Israel is a nation-state. One does not have to recognize Saudi Arabia as a tyrannical state based on a dumb interpretation of Islam. Just has to recognize it as a nation-state. That is all that is required to do business with the global community.

Can we mash all these Israel/Palestine threads into one now?? Soooo much cross talk from all the different threads it might as well be one in the same.

[Big Guy]

Israel is quite open in its policy of punitive measures in dealing with Palestinians. It has already stated that the withholding of these funds is only the first step - in fact it has warned of a "gradual dissolution" of the Palestinian Authority if it dares to challenge Israel.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/israel-eyes-tougher-moves-after-tax-freeze-20151413401938395.html

Israel also remains one of the only civilized nations which overtly practices collective punishment - a practice outlawed by the fourth Geneva Convention. It is not working and has only emboldened the Palestinians. Abbas has promised that Palestine intends to soon reapply for statehood with the UN.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/01/abbas-renew-bid-palestinian-statehood-20151423844267227.html

The Palestinians will not give up. The Palestinians and especially those in Gaza appear to be ready to fight to the death for their freedom.

In another thread, jbg, referring to another oppressed group stated; "I am saying that as a result of their sever deprivation literally any behaviour on their part should be tolerated and encouraged." There are certain actions which I do not condone so I do not believe that what the Palestinian will do next should be necessarily tolerated and encouraged but it should be understood.

[jbg]

I have no intention to try to convince either RUE (Sorry, I no longer read your longer responses - it takes too long) or jbg of my position on Israel. I have no dog in that fight. Personally, my sentiments are with the oppressed and I see the Palestinians in the Middle East (and especially Gaza) as the oppressed and the Israelis as the oppressors. When I read about another oppressive move then I post it.

Do you see your sentiments with the oppressed of:

1. East Timor;
2. Kurile Islands;
3. North Korea;
4. Tibet;
5. Areas controlled by IS?
6. Cuba;
7. Venezuela; and/or
8. Iran?

[Rue]

I wil respond to your latesy comments Jacee.

You stated. "I was talking about Israel's childish hissy fit - threatening to steal Palestinian money to punish them for going to the ICC, which Palestine has every right to do."

Thankls for the clarification that it was not directed at me however I still challenge the above hissy fit comment as pointless and counterproductive to credible debate. There is cause and effect between everything Israel and the PA do with one another. Your bias sees anything the PA does as reasonable, anything Israel does as unreasonable.

Now on that particular issue itself. I do not believe Palestinian people should be punished for the decisions of their government. I am not comfortable cutting off any funding to people who are innocent of the PA's decisions.

That said I also think the PA is a joke. To sign up and expect to be protected by international law, when half its assembly is made up of unelected terrorists who openly will not follow any law is past absurd. But do explain to me how Tanzim, Force 17, Fatah are law abiding and to not commit international crimes while being members of the PA. But hey its even more fun if you then explain how the PA not only gets into bed with its own terrorist cells, but has also chosen to unifty with Hamas.

Right you tell me how Al Asqa Martyr Brigade and Hamas are not terrorist organizations breaking international law as we speak.

You stated;

"Don't be ridiculous. Every state has a right, a responsibility to arm itself to defend its citizens."

Speaking about ridiculous, to pass off Hamas, Fatah Hawks and Eagles, Tanzim, Force 17, Palestinian Intifadah. ISIL, Al Quaeda, Hezbollah as legitimate state armies is ridiculous. They are not. They do not and have never constituted the armed forces of any sovereign state or internally legal entity. They are in fact terrorist units who refuse to follow the Geneva Convention or any laws so this attempt to rebrand them as state armed forces is ridiculous.

You stated: "Israel can be Jewish if it wants, but this pathetic grovelling to other countries mewling for permission to do so is ridiculous."

Againt the above comments render any point you were making illogical and simply an excuse to insult. Israel has not grovelled to anyone. That is an insulting reference you throw in and its precisely why I challenge you for lacking any credibility when you make such insulting comments. You seem unable to go more than a sentence without throwing in some sort of negative insult. You are well aware no peace can come about as long as Hamas and the PA refuse to recognize Israel's right to be Jewish. You can insult all you want, but you support the position of the PA and Hamas not to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and that to me is illogical and an obstacle to peace-an obstacle, in fact a denial you won't address.

You stated; "Nobody is disarming and nobody is deciding what kind of state Israel wants to be except Israel itself."

Yes and without disarmamentthere will be no peace as we saw in Ireland until the IRA disarmed.

Your comments abover make no sense for two reasons.

First yhe constitution of Hamas and the terrorist organizations you try now to revinvent as legitimate state defence forces in fact state in their constitutions and speeches that Israel must be a Muslim state and STOP being a Jewish state.

The PA constitution like the constitution of Hamascalls for a MUSLIM Palestinian state where Jewish Israel is today.

They in fact demand Israel not be a Jewish state and become a Muslim state. Your continuing to deny this is pointless.

The fact you deny Hamas is a terrorist force and illegitimate, the fact you won't acknowledge what its constitution says, speaks for itself. If you did have the sincerity to acknowledge the Hamas constitution you would then not be able to argue it does not demand Israel be Muslim or that it demands terror be used against Jews world wide.

Now you stated;

"You are a hardliner, and you will never be among those who finally do bring peace to Israel. You are part of the problem, not the solution."

Again you make a personal attack against me and do not debate the positions. Why? What is it that you can't go a sentence without a derogatory insult when discussing different views? You call me a hardliner-why because I call Hamas a terrorist organization and unlike you do not come on this board and try revise it to be a state defence army? Why because I challenge you to explain how you ignore the Hamas Charter? Why because I stated that it is impossible for Israel to withdraw if Hamas remains committed to its terrorist war against Israel? What would it make me moderate to say Israel shoudl withdraw to dangerous borders to facilitate Hamas attacking it?

Are you moderate because you call Hamas freedom fighters and won't admit its terrorist raison d'existence and militant world wide Muslim agenda?

More to the point Jacee, you have no clue what I did in Israel, who and what I worked for.. You know nothing about me and my views however you think it appropriate to assume you do and attack me personally.

As for your inflating my importance to a level of being able to sabotage peace, besides being ridiculous its a tad melodramatic.

Now finally you stated in black bold letters:

"Maybe you and jbg are the 'anti-Israel' lobby here, because your approach is certainly having the effect of turning moderates against Israel."

Lol that is funny. Again you try get personal and now try blame JBG and myself for your opinions or those of your colleagues that you refer to.

Right because of JBG and myself we not only prevent peace in the Middle East, we are to blame for your views.

With due respect Jacee blaming me or JBG for your opinions is illogical. You are presumably competent, of legal age, and conceive your own opinions. This playing yourself as a victim turned to lack of moderation when it comes to discussion on Israel because of my opinions or anyone else's is nonsensical.

Yah I know, I am this sinister Jew Zionist who turns your mind into a boiling sea of immoderate conceptualization.

I am to blame for your views-if only I thought like you....presto there would be peace.

Come on Jacee, knock off the scapegoating, the victimhood, the refusal to take responsibility for your own opinions. Knock off the personal comments.

Anytime you want to explain how Hamas is not terrorist I would love to read your position to that effect.
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Edited January 5, 2015 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Well, let's satisfy one point Rue wants desperately from the rest of us.

We all agree Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Ok, next point?

[Rue]

Well, let's satisfy one point Rue wants desperately from the rest of us.

We all agree Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Ok, next point?

I am under the impression from her previous comments Jacee stated they are not terrorist and are freedom fighters.

I am also under the impression from her last response to me she is arguing they are a legitimate state armed force defending its people./

So I have challenged that.

If she does believe they are terrorist I have never seen it stated from her.

If there is clarification from ehr that Hamas is a terrorist organization I will acknowledge it.

[GostHacked]

I am under the impression from her previous comments Jacee stated they are not terrorist and are freedom fighters.

The Muhajedeen were freedom fighters before they were terrorists!

[guyser]

[nm

Edited January 5, 2015 by Guyser2

[jacee]

I am under the impression from her previous comments Jacee stated they are not terrorist and are freedom fighters.

I am also under the impression from her last response to me she is arguing they are a legitimate state armed force defending its people./

So I have challenged that.

If she does believe they are terrorist I have never seen it stated from her.

If there is clarification from ehr that Hamas is a terrorist organization I will acknowledge it.

Your "impressions" are often faulty. You have stereotyped your 'impressions' of posters that you refer to as the "anti-Israel" lobby and you throw around your "impressions" without respecting individual poster's actual words.

If you want to comment on something I have said, quote what I said.

I no longer respond to your vague and distorted "impressions".

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[Rue]

The Muhajedeen were freedom fighters before they were terrorists!

What does that mean?

The fact you were once not a terrorist does not mean you can never be one.

See its the above kind of response I can't take seriously from you.

When people who have tried to justify what Hamas does said well the Stern Gang was terrorist, my response was, and so? Two wrongs do not make a right but the difference was the Palmach-Haganah turned in the Stern-Levi Gang and denounced them as terrorists while Mr. Abbas openly forms a unity government with terrorists not just Hamas but Fatah.

Using your logic if I once did not murder but them start murdering I am not a murderer? Is that it?

You can do better than that.

The actions that determine whether one is a terrorist or not speak for themselves or as the latin expression says, res ipsa loquitur, the facts speak for themselves.

Terrorism is wrong no matter who does it. Its never excusable. Its a failure by humans to use their gift of reasoning. Its a deliberate choice to revert to a primal level of behaviour and I subscribe to Freud's theory that if we do not repress and evolve past such primal urges we can not evolve as a society.

[jacee]

What does that mean?

The fact you were once not a terrorist does not mean you can never be one.

See its the above kind of response I can't take seriously from you.

When people who have tried to justify what Hamas does said well the Stern Gang was terrorist, my response was, and so? Two wrongs do not make a right but the difference was the Palmach-Haganah turned in the Stern-Levi Gang and denounced them as terrorists while Mr. Abbas openly forms a unity government with terrorists not just Hamas but Fatah.

Using your logic if I once did not murder but them start murdering I am not a murderer? Is that it?

You can do better than that.

The actions that determine whether one is a terrorist or not speak for themselves or as the latin expression says, res ipsa loquitur, the facts speak for themselves.

Terrorism is wrong no matter who does it. Its never excusable. Its a failure by humans to use their gift of reasoning. Its a deliberate choice to revert to a primal level of behaviour and I subscribe to Freud's theory that if we do not repress and evolve past such primal urges we can not evolve as a society.

Israel has no moral ground to pass such judgements.

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[bush_cheney2004]

Palestinian terrorists never had the "moral high ground":

"They're all gone." - Jim McKay (ABC sports reporter) - Munich 1972

[jacee]

Palestinian terrorists never had the "moral high ground":

"They're all gone." - Jim McKay (ABC sports reporter) - Munich 1972

Neither side does, and the continual nattering back and forth is accomplishing nothing.

That's why I fully support Palestine pursuing independence and justice through appropriate formal channels.

Somebody has to move the discussion to a higher level than bickering, and right now Palestine is making some effort to do so imo.

.

[Rue]

Israel has no moral ground to pass such judgements.

.

Not the point. The point is Israel as a sovereign state has a moral obligation to protect its citizens from attack.

Hamas is not part of a sovereign state and does not subscribe to the Geneva convention. It recognizes no laws but its own self proclaimed ones. It has a constitution that calls for the killing of not just Israelis but Jews world wide.

You can try twist this all you want but Israel is not the sole issue any more than Jordan is not the sole issue or any other one nation is.

How far do you want to extend your argument about Israel being imperfect to deny its right to exist free of terrorist attacks against it?

How do 2 wrongs make a right? How does your preception that the Israeli government is immoral justify Hamas being immoral?

You really want to stick with that kind of argument?

Its quite simple. A Palestinian state could come about and be recognized by Israel. It was in the past. Israel demonstrated that precedent in Gaza until Hamas not Israel chose terror not peaceful cooperation and blew everything up.

This is about making choices. Hamas has always had the choice to chose another way other than violence.

The best way to disarm the IDF is to disarm terrorists. No terrorists with arms, no IDF it really is that simple.

This notion you have that for no reason the IDF exists and Israel for no reason defends itself means what?

As well how is building tunnels into Israel a freedom fighting move?

How does killing innocent children and civilians achieve freedom.

How does telling your people it is their religious duty to die fighting Israel and Jews freedom?

Please explain just once how free the people of Gaza have been with Hamas. You really want to try argue that?

You really want to argue Hamas does anything for its people other than get them killed?

What has it achieved other than the dearth of its people?

[Rue]

Neither side does, and the continual nattering back and forth is accomplishing nothing.

That's why I fully support Palestine pursuing independence and justice through appropriate formal channels.

Somebody has to move the discussion to a higher level than bickering, and right now Palestine is making some effort to do so imo.

.

Stop trying to revise and sanitize what Hamas did by describing it as nattering. They did not natter and they do not natter. They attack and kill and they attack and kill Palestinians and Israelis.

Secondly you twist and propogate. The reason the PA is moving for statehood is precisely because its a tactic it uses so it can avoid negotiating with Israel. That is the tactic to try impose unilaterally a solution without negotiation.

The tactic won't work. It no doubt will trigger some diplomatic nattering as you say but don't try revise it as an exercise in dealing with Israel and negotiating. Its an attempt to unilaterally dictate without having to negotiate and Abbas has said precisely that and that he will not recognize Israel as a Jewish state or agree to disarming terrorists in the West Bank and so because of that Israel is left with no choice but the status quo.

Moderates like me are shut up because it is illogical for us to argue to Israelis withdraw your settlers, go back to 1967 borders, but hey Palestinians can continue to refuse to recognize your right to exist as a Jewish state, can maintain their terror cellls committed to killing Jews and Israelis worldwide and maintain their declaration of war against Israel.

You are interesting. You call me a hardliner but your script can not possibly allow you to recognize that terrorism exists and as long as it does and is condoned by the PA, and used by the PA and Hamas and Fatah and as long as these Palestinian groups condone terrorism and their demand Israel stop being a Jewish state, that is hardline in fact its just regurgitation of the 1948 tantrum by the Arab League of Nations when it could not stop Israel from becoming Jewish.

You just continue the denial and engage in couched words but the denial is exactly the same. You won't even acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist organization. The best you can do is indirectly answer that and even then you try avoid any discussion on Fatah, Hamas and the terror cells.

[Rue]

The one thing I learned long ago on political forums is that the word "justice" is an open ended one, and to understand its meaning one must read carefully the context and sequence of words from the person who calls it out and says they seek it.

In my profession of law, "justice" is almost always used to mean "revenge" or "retribution".

Justice. Right.

[jacee]

Negotiations are at stalemate, poisoned.

Status quo isn't tolerable.

Tactic or not, Palestine has a legal right to pursue statehood and membership in the ICC.

Israel doesn't like it.

Moving on ...

[Rue]

Negotiations are at stalemate, poisoned.

Status quo isn't tolerable.

Tactic or not, Palestine has a legal right to pursue statehood and membership in the ICC.

Israel doesn't like it.

Moving on ...

Yes on all 5.

[jacee]

Yes on all 5.

Then we are agreed.

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