Hudson Jones Posted October 23, 2014 Report Posted October 23, 2014 Rue is the expert of what the Palestinians think, the Israelis think, what we think, what we mean and everything else. Everyone else - "No! You don't know!" Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
jbg Posted October 24, 2014 Report Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) Same old twisting of the narrative. Like those rockets, which rarely even reach past the Gaza border are being shot just for the hell of it.Let's say you worked in Toronto, and the U.S. was regularly firing rockets over Lake Ontario. Let's say 5 of 6 of the rockets landed harmlessly in the drink, would you feel safe going to work? How come in your explanation and in your narrative, you always forget to mention the decades long occupation, the illegal and inhumane siege/blockade of Gaza and the open air prison that Israel has created?You're omitting that the "occupation" began as a result of Egypt's closure of Israel's sea lanes, most crucially their "lane" to oil from Iran. Then, against Israel's warning Jordan joined the war. That is what started the "occupation" unless you're deeming the "occupation" to have begun on May 15, 1948, the so called "Nakba" or "disaster." In that case what's really in play is Israel's existence. Edited October 24, 2014 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Scared.In.Canada Posted October 25, 2014 Report Posted October 25, 2014 Well said my Jewish brother. If it was their own existence in question people here would have a differen't view on Israel. Quote
jbg Posted October 25, 2014 Report Posted October 25, 2014 Well said my Jewish brother. If it was their own existence in question people here would have a differen't view on Israel. Any day of the week for them, Jewish life is cheap, Arab militant life precious. It's a world turned upside down. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted October 25, 2014 Report Posted October 25, 2014 Any day of the week for them, Jewish life is cheap, Arab militant life precious. It's a world turned upside down. That's ridiculous baiting. . Quote
GostHacked Posted October 25, 2014 Report Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Let's say you worked in Toronto, and the U.S. was regularly firing rockets over Lake Ontario. Let's say 5 of 6 of the rockets landed harmlessly in the drink, would you feel safe going to work? How many times in a day do you cross the street in an unsafe manner? The risk of being hit by a car is far greater, but then again you put yourself at risk by running out into traffic. Your pathetic hypothetical hyperbole is a lame attempt at trying to make a comparison to the situation in Israel/Palestine. The result of sympathizing with your notion of existential threats. Edited October 25, 2014 by GostHacked Quote
jbg Posted October 25, 2014 Report Posted October 25, 2014 How many times in a day do you cross the street in an unsafe manner?I will readily concede that I jaywalk across 42nd Street walking between Grand Central Terminal and my office. That is my decision. If someone starts firing rockets from Queens and I'm hit that is not my decision. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jacee Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 I will readily concede that I jaywalk across 42nd Street walking between Grand Central Terminal and my office. That is my decision. If someone starts firing rockets from Queens and I'm hit that is not my decision. I acknowledge that the rockets cause fear. It's Israel's method of addressing the issues that is questionable. Quote
marcus Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) Let's say you worked in Toronto, and the U.S. was regularly firing rockets over Lake Ontario. Let's say 5 of 6 of the rockets landed harmlessly in the drink, would you feel safe going to work? Not only your explanation of the occupation, but also your weak analogies omit important information. Why should I respond to asinine analogies? Again, the story doesn't start with rockets. The rockets are not the cause. Anyone who has studied the Middle East, will not fall for your whitewashing of the recent and past history of the region. You're omitting that the "occupation" began as a result of Egypt's closure of Israel's sea lanes, most crucially their "lane" to oil from Iran. Then, against Israel's warning Jordan joined the war. That is what started the "occupation" unless you're deeming the "occupation" to have begun on May 15, 1948, the so called "Nakba" or "disaster." In that case what's really in play is Israel's existence. The occupation is there because the plan has always been to never allow a Palestinian State and to continue to systematically annex Palestinian land. Edited October 26, 2014 by marcus Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 I acknowledge that the rockets cause fear. It's Israel's method of addressing the issues that is questionable. The rockets not only cause fear...they cause death and injury. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 Shoot rockets at Israel....get bombed. Any questions ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 Well, you've summed up the extent of your knowledge quite well. Nice job. Quote
jbg Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) Not only your explanation of the occupation, but also your weak analogies omit important information. Why should I respond to asinine analogies? Again, the story doesn't start with rockets. The rockets are not the cause. Anyone who has studied the Middle East, will not fall for your whitewashing of the recent and past history of the region. The occupation is there because the plan has always been to never allow a Palestinian State and to continue to systematically annex Palestinian land. Did Egypt, Syria and/or Jordan ever create a Palestinian state between May 14, 1948 and June 6, 1967? Well, you've summed up the extent of your knowledge quite well. Nice job.Why do you need to know more? Edited October 26, 2014 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
On Guard for Thee Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 Because knowing more will make you smarter. Quote
jbg Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 Because knowing more will make you smarter.There's nothing subtle about a rocket attack. My IQ of 79 can quite easily understand what one is. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 Israel's Knowledge is the same as in Canada....which drops bombs on other nations without receiving any rocket attacks: http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2011/110614-canada-bombs.htm Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
On Guard for Thee Posted October 26, 2014 Report Posted October 26, 2014 Israel's Knowledge is the same as in Canada....which drops bombs on other nations without receiving any rocket attacks: http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2011/110614-canada-bombs.htm You do know how far Libya is from Canada, don't you? Quote
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Palestinians come up one vote shy in attempt to pass U.N. Security Council resolution The United Nations Security Council on Tuesday rejected a proposal demanding withdrawal of Israeli forces from the West Bank and East Jerusalem by the end of 2017, in another setback for Palestinian efforts to build international pressure on Israel. The proposed resolution, which needed nine votes from the 15-member council to succeed, got eight votes in support, with two against and five abstentions. ... Frances yes vote was a small victory for the Palestinians. ... Israeli officials fear Abbas might seek court membership to enable international prosecution of Israelis. And this is interesting: palestinians-plan-next-steps-after-failed-un-bid- Before the vote, Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said that the Palestinians can return again to the Security Council, which will have five new members starting Thursday who are viewed as more sympathetic to their cause. I am glad the Palestinians continue to actively seeking a two state resolution through formal channels. . Edited December 31, 2014 by jacee Quote
Rue Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 (edited) Well I am happy you are happy Jacee. However I won't start a thread with an inflammatory title suggesting Palestinians failed again. That tactic I will leave to the exclusive domain of the anti Israeli lobby. The UN Security Council lost any credibility it had over this matter years ago precisely because it has abandon its role as neutral peace broker. It has allowed its agenda to become completely partisan against Israel and in so doing causes such compromised results. In an ideal world the UN acting as a neutral mediator would have assured in a peace treaty that in return for Israel returning to safe and secure borders as close to the 1967 line as possible without compromising its security and including pulling out settlers from the West Bank, a recognition by the Palestinian Government of the JEWISH state of Israel and an express condition that it must disarm its terrorists and form a common market with Jordan and Israel so as to enable the facilitation of travel of Palestinians through to Gaza or to Amman or Tel Aviv for air flights and to be able to trade their goods through Israeli sea ports and the exchange of water, electricity and other mutual projects. The UN will not do that and because it does not, in the vacuum of such leadership Palestinians remain captive of their leaders who remain entrenched in the belief they can disband Israel as a Jewish state and us violence and terror to achieve this. Edited December 31, 2014 by Rue Quote
jacee Posted December 31, 2014 Report Posted December 31, 2014 Well I am happy you are happy Jacee. However I won't start a thread with an inflammatory title suggesting Palestinians failed again. That tactic I will leave to the exclusive domain of the anti Israeli lobby. The UN Security Council lost any credibility it had over this matter years ago precisely because it has abandon its role as neutral peace broker. It has allowed its agenda to become completely partisan against Israel and in so doing causes such compromised results. In an ideal world the UN acting as a neutral mediator would have assured in a peace treaty that in return for Israel returning to safe and secure borders as close to the 1967 line as possible without compromising its security and including pulling out settlers from the West Bank, a recognition by the Palestinian Government of the JEWISH state of Israel Palestine has no say over who Israel's citizens are.Israel doesn't need Palestine's approval. non issue. and an express condition that it must disarm its terrorists and form a common market with Jordan and Israel so as to enable the facilitation of travel of Palestinians through to Gaza or to Amman or Tel Aviv for air flights and to be able to trade their goods through Israeli sea ports and the exchange of water, electricity and other mutual projects. The UN will not do that and because it does not, in the vacuum of such leadership Palestinians remain captive of their leaders who remain entrenched in the belief they can disband Israel as a Jewish state and us violence and terror to achieve this. Looks to me like they are just trying to achieve state status, keep the pressure on everyone to actually achieve a resolution for peace, and use the law to protect themselves. Palestinian President Signs Bid to Join ICC Quote
Big Guy Posted January 1, 2015 Author Report Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) As jacee has stated above, the Palestinians did not get the required 9 votes in the UN Security Council. They came up one vote short with the USA and Israel putting the screws to different nations to abstain "or else". It worked - for now. I wonder what Nigeria was promised ( or threatened with) to change its mind and abstain. It saved the USA the embarrassment of vetoing the proposal and officially (and emphatically) placing itself on the wrong side. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/us-israel-un-reject-palestinian-resolution-nigeria-security-council But this has lead to the next step. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has signed a document requesting membership of the International Criminal Court (ICC). Abbas also signed a raft of about 20 other treaties aligning Palestine with various international organizations. This decision sets the stage for filing a war crimes case against Israel for its actions in Gaza. It will be interesting seeing the Israeli excuse and rationalization for shooting those Palestinian fish in that Israeli created barrel called Gaza. The original vote in the UN was not supposed to be even close and would not have been close a few years ago but the recent Israeli incursions into Gaza have begun to sway world opinion. For Palestine to garner those 8 votes was a surprise. In this latest move, legal experts think the process is likely to result in Palestinian membership being approved and Israel being taken to task for its actions. Netanyahu has sworn to defend the soldiers of the IDF (and himself) from any war crime accusations. It will be interesting to see just how far the USA will be willing to go to support this newly rogue Israel if the international community decides that it is guilty of war crimes. Looks like the Palestinians have no intention of being subjugated and quietly going away. I think it is time for Canada to look to some of the Arab nations, and especially Iran, as future allies in the Middle East. It looks to me like the Palestinians are winning the public relations war and Israel is looking like a pariah to more and more countries in the world. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/12/palestinians-decide-join-icc-201412311710935422.html Edited January 1, 2015 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Rue Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 Jacee of course Israel needs recognition from the Palestinians just as much as Palestinians need recognition of their state by Israel. International law and the law of sovereignty is predicated on states recognizing each other as equals. It is absurd to think Palestinians can have a Muslim Palestinian state, but will refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and continue to maintain a constitution calling for the return of Israel as it is today to Palestinian non Jews to be part of their state. That is the very point of the conflict and why there can be no peace. To create peace, there need to be two equal partners who recognize each other as equals. Palestinians want their cake and eat it too. They want a Palestinian MUSLIMstate and to be recognized by Israel as a Palestinian MUSLIM state but don't think they have to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and place a deliberate condition on Israel that they won't recognize it until it stops being Jewish and turns itself into a Muslim state-that is precisely what Abbas said, until Israel agrees to turn its population majority Muslim by taking in Palestinians on demand, he won't recognize it. Mr.Abbas won't acknowledge Israel as it is here today, now and as it was created. He wants it changed. As for Hamas they are in a declared state of war with Israel. I appreciate you think from previous statements they are only freedom fighters and so ignore their constitution and its call to kill Jews world wide as part of a Muslim world wide war. I appreciate you won't acknowledge that. Bottom line-Palestinians want a second state but until their leaders give up the notion of disbanding Israel by either terror, violence, war or diplomacy, it aint gonna happen. Until they recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and as an equal, Israel can not do a damn thing but defend its right to exist. I have said it a million time, disarm the terrorists,recognize ISrael as a Jewish state, then a second Palestinian state is possible, the ability to pull out settlers is possible and peace can be more then the couched absurd term of reference Arafat made a mockery out of when he said peace never meant peace, it just meant an opportunity to rearm. Quote
Big Guy Posted January 1, 2015 Author Report Posted January 1, 2015 Israel has a right to exist. Palestine has a right to exist. Everybody has a right to exist. I do not think that it is Israel's decision if Palestine will exist or not - it will be up to the international community to recognize such a nation - or not. As I have been saying repeatedly, the Israeli policy on Gaza is completely misdirected. The Israeli policy on new settlements is a mistake and the international community is moving towards a support of Palestine. They are winning the public relations war. That may be a more important war to win than the last few in that area. Israel has been doing things that the USA disagrees with and has warned against. If Israel continues on its current path the USA will have to reassess its financial relationship with Israel. I believe that Canada should be reassessing its relationship with Israel right now. Canadian support of Israel is doing little good for Canada and in fact is causing problems for us. Time for Canada to look elsewhere in the Middle East for an ally. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 1, 2015 Report Posted January 1, 2015 .....Israel has been doing things that the USA disagrees with and has warned against. If Israel continues on its current path the USA will have to reassess its financial relationship with Israel. False....this is only wishful thinking from Canada...and Israel's enemies. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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