bush_cheney2004 Posted October 4, 2014 Author Report Posted October 4, 2014 That takes perversion to a new high. There are actually more Canadians fighting for ISIL as of today.....how's that for perverted ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted October 4, 2014 Report Posted October 4, 2014 Almost normal in comparison. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 A decade and a half of war on terror and the result is ISIS. Bomb these countries to try to get at ISIS and the result will be what exactly? But, if we do nothing, then they'll just fade away, bitterly resigned to our peace loving nature, and never bother anyone again. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 No, the hope is that if we start minding our own business and stop interfering in the region that it'll resume developing along more normal lines. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 No, the hope is that if we start minding our own business and stop interfering in the region that it'll resume developing along more normal lines. Such as when? In a few hundred years? The middle east pretty much stopped developing when Islam arrived. Prior to that they made the Europeans seem like savages. But as Islam took hold they focused more and more energy on worship and religion and less and less on developing societies, much less science or culture. That is why the Europeans were eventually able to walk in and take over with ease. I remember reading something by a Muslim writer last year who went home to visit the family. There was such a fatalism amongst them, about sickness, about poverty, about everything. "If God wills" was repeated many times a day. Whatever happens it's Gods will, so no point in worrying about it or trying to improve or resist things. Study the Koran and you'll do well, if not in this life, then in the next one. There is no reason to believe that if we put up an invisible wall around the area and left it alone for a few hundred years it would be one bit more culturally or socially advanced than it is now. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 No, the hope is that if we start minding our own business and stop interfering in the region that it'll resume developing along more normal lines. I agree. Nobody asked us to get involved in anything. If we would have done nothing a long while ago then the pressures that create changes in regions would have eventually caused civil wars which in turn would have resolved the differences that existed. The history of the social organization of this globe is that different pressures cause things to change to adapt to new and changing conditions. Canada evolved and fought through different pressures between France, England, aboriginals etc. We did OK creating our own country. I wonder how the USA would have evolved if Germany or China or France or England decided it had to get involved in the civil war because those bad guys in the South were using slaves. Leave that area to straighten itself out then maybe Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey et al would involve their formidable militaries to find a resolution rather than playing at "supporting" the American led Crusade number 45. We are being played like a fine fiddle. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Such as when? In a few hundred years? I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer. There is no reason to believe that if we put up an invisible wall around the area and left it alone for a few hundred years it would be one bit more culturally or socially advanced than it is now. There is more reason to believe if we keep doing what we're doing it'll blow up in our faces. And it's probably us that needs to be walled in. Edited October 5, 2014 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 I wouldn't be surprised if it takes longer. There is more reason to believe if we keep doing what we're doing it'll blow up in our faces. I default to my earlier point. The US pretty much ignored what was going on in Afghanistan. Did that make them turn their eyes away from them and mind their own business? Osama bin laden built up a base with ten thousand followers there with the blessing of the Taliban. There is no reason to believe, and every reason not to, that if we ignore what is happening (leaving aside the presence and need for oil) that the religious nutjobs there will ignore the West and simply attack each other for an indefinite period. That, again, leaves aside any humanitarian concerns about all the people who would be slaughtered by the likes of ISIS or who would starve in the resulting chaos. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 I default to my earlier point. The US pretty much ignored what was going on in Afghanistan. Did that make them turn their eyes away from them and mind their own business? Osama bin laden built up a base with ten thousand followers there with the blessing of the Taliban. Go around in circles you mean. The US abandoned Afghanistan to the Taliban, like it abandoned the Sha'aban Intifada to Hussein and the Sunni to the Shia and round and round it goes. You,like the US, also turned your eyes away from the fact that not one Afghan ever attacked the US. There is no reason to believe, and every reason not to, that if we ignore what is happening (leaving aside the presence and need for oil) that the religious nutjobs there will ignore the West and simply attack each other for an indefinite period. It stands to reason there'll be a few nut-jobs with an axe to grind against the west somewhere, I mean go figure. That, again, leaves aside any humanitarian concerns about all the people who would be slaughtered by the likes of ISIS or who would starve in the resulting chaos. Should'a could'a thought that one through back years ago when folks like me were warning we'd be pretty much exactly where we are today. You're still not paying attention are you? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Guest Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 If we created the monster, isn't it our responsibility to kill it? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) If we created the monster, isn't it our responsibility to kill it? For sure........ignoring said monster is not a viable strategy....Kill or be killed. Edited October 5, 2014 by Derek 2.0 Quote
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 If we created the monster, isn't it our responsibility to kill it? Actually it was our great-great-grandparents that created it...we're just passing on the tradition. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Derek 2.0 Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 Actually it was our great-great-grandparents that created it...we're just passing on the tradition. Sure, but ignoring it, won't make it go away.......... Quote
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 I didn't say it would, I just said it wouldn't make things worse. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 Go around in circles you mean. The US abandoned Afghanistan to the Taliban, like it abandoned the Sha'aban Intifada to Hussein and the Sunni to the Shia and round and round it goes. Okay, so your position is that if we ignore them and leave them alone we're responsible for all the shit that happens. On the other hand, if we intervene then we're also responsible for all the shit that happens. Is there any point in time when THEY are responsible for their own actions, or do you consider them to be so ignorant, so sub-human that they simply can't be held responsible for anything they do? You,like the US, also turned your eyes away from the fact that not one Afghan ever attacked the US. Their country harbored the people who did. Then they refused to surrender them. They've also been actively working with them, both before 9/11 and since then. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 If we created the monster, isn't it our responsibility to kill it? We didn't create the monster. It rose about 1400 years ago and has been slaughtering people ever since. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Guest Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 Careful, you don't want Ben Affleck waving his arms at you... Quote
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 Okay, so your position is that if we ignore them and leave them alone we're responsible for all the shit that happens. On the other hand, if we intervene then we're also responsible for all the shit that happens. No that is not my position at all. See Entrance Strategy. Is there any point in time when THEY are responsible for their own actions, or do you consider them to be so ignorant, so sub-human that they simply can't be held responsible for anything they do? Every individual is responsible for the consequences of their actions all the time. I will not however attack or punish a people or society that has no democratic process for the actions of certain individuals within it, individuals in democratic societies OTOH are responsible for the actions of their governments. Their country harbored the people who did. Then they refused to surrender them. They've also been actively working with them, both before 9/11 and since then. No, the Taliban refused, ordinary people in Afghanistan had no say. You continuously treat people living under the thumbs of dictators and warlords as if they're responsible for the actions these take. That's just plain inhuman and even more so given so many dictators and warlords are products and by-products of our making. That's what we need to take responsibility for. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 We didn't create the monster. It rose about 1400 years ago and has been slaughtering people ever since. Sure, but ignoring it, won't make it go away.......... So what is it guys, you're supposed to be on the same side here but you're all over the map. I'm supposed to believe this next foray into the quagmire has been thought through any better than the last one? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Derek 2.0 Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 So what is it guys, you're supposed to be on the same side here but you're all over the map. I'm supposed to believe this next foray into the quagmire has been thought through any better than the last one? How are we over the map? Argus and I both are supportive of military action. Quote
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) You both bring and give weight to widely differing precepts and notions in the decision to go to war i.e. you say 'sure' we created the monster vs Argus saying the monster was created 1400 years ago. If the background information guiding your side's thinking is that out of sync how out of whack is everything else being brought to bear on this decision? Edited October 5, 2014 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Derek 2.0 Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 You both bring and give weight to widely differing precepts and notions to bear in the decision to go to war i.e. you say 'sure' we created the monster vs Argus saying the monster was created 1400 years ago. If the background information guiding your side's thinking is that out of sync how out of whack is the rest of the thought going into this? I think there is a realization that regardless of “root causes”, be they from 10, 100 or 1000 years ago, or if we caused them or not, there is a problem presently and if not addressed, it will continue to worsen. Quote
Rue Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Again I defer to Argus and Derek on this topic. Here we go again, soft, pampered , sheltered, privileged, clueless leftists spewing this pathetic mantra that terrorism will go away if they stick their heads up their asses. Easy to lecture Israel and the US on what they should not have done with terrorism now these buttox burrowers want to lecture Canada on its need to collectively hide its head up its keester Geniuses. They certainly must keep their proctologists busy with their vile habit. Edited October 5, 2014 by Rue Quote
eyeball Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 Like I said, all over the map. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Big Guy Posted October 5, 2014 Report Posted October 5, 2014 The only information as to the progress of the war against ISIS is what is coming through Al Jazeera. It appears that the air war has indeed “blunted” the ISIS attack and has “slowed down” its rate of progress. http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2014/10/fighting-rages-iraq-anbar-province-2014105101450991649.html Not all is bad news for the West; The stock prices of the Pentagon's top contractors have hit all-time highs since the recent wars in Iraq and Syria started two months ago, as Dan Froomkin of the Intercept has pointed out. This windfall for weapons makers may pale in comparison to the billions that are likely to go to private contractors like Dyncorps and Triple Canopy that will be enlisted to help train Iraqi police and security forces. The market is clearly betting that the brief age of fiscal restraint at the Pentagon is over. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-hartung/who-will-profit-from-the_b_5915794.html War is also very good for American business; http://www.globalresearch.ca/contractors-ready-to-cash-in-on-isis-war/5402252 More information is coming out daily. Looks like over 600 Canadians will be deployed. CF-18s cost $16,750 per hour to operate, including fuel and aircraft maintenance. The Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) dropped by CF-18s during the Libya war cost around $25,000 each. That is the cost of one of those Toyotas. http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/03/canada-vs-isis-ten-things-to-know-about-the-combat-mission-in-iraq/ It is too late and a waste of time for me to argue the merits of this mission. It is “Game On!” It is now time to evaluate the progress of this war. It would be far easier if there were impartial journalists on the ground but if there are no boots on the ground I guess there are no reporters cameras on the ground. "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war" - William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
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