Argus Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 It's interesting that Putin and the Russian propaganda ministry have thrown this word around so much of late. But while fascism has a broad array of characterstics, the unsettling fact is that if any state in Europe qualifies as fascist it seems to be Russia itself. If it is not a fascist state it certainly is closer than anyone else I can think of in the northern hemisphere. What are the general characteristics of a fascist state? Devotion to a strong, authoritarian ruler? Check. Veneration of the state. Check Focusing economic power and control in the hands of the state. Check Emphasis on nationalism and militarism. Check Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[5][8][9][10] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.[11] -- Wiki How is Russia not a fascist state? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) You are confusing totalitarianism with facism. Facism is totalitarian in practice its true but what sets it apart is the re-organization of the state around corporate interests. Russia is more the opposite of that, with an emphasis on heavy government control of economic production, a hold-over from the communist era. This corporatist perspective would apply more to self described "free market economies", like Canada and the US where government control and regulation, and central management in general are seen as a sort of contemporary "evil". Thats not to say these places are facist either. In any case its not a terribly useful word. Besides the fact that you dont understand what it means, the word has become a universal epithet for pretty much ANYTHING BAD, and all kinds of totalitarianism. Its become almost as useless as the word "terrorism". Edited August 29, 2014 by Charles Anthony removed quotation of Opening Post Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Argus Posted August 29, 2014 Author Report Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) You are confusing totalitarianism with facism. Facism is totalitarian in practice its true but what sets it apart is the re-organization of the state around corporate interests. Russia is more the opposite of that, with an emphasis on heavy government control of economic production, a hold-over from the communist era. Uhm, do you have a cite or this just your own personal definition of fascist economics (note there is more to fascism than economics). Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html Seems to me that Russia is, if not facist, not entirely dissiimilar to a fascist state. Edited August 29, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) Uhm, do you have a cite or this just your own personal definition of fascist economics (note there is more to fascism than economics). Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html Seems to me that Russia is, if not facist, not entirely dissiimilar to a fascist state. Russia if anything would be described as state capitalism. The government plays a large direct role in the economy including complete ownership of energy companies, defense companies, banks, transportation. The government directly owns nearly two thirds of the market-capitalization in the Russian stock market. This is more or less the opposite of Mussolinis model, and is in fact what it was designed to prevent. He recognized the rise of socialism and trade-unionism, and proposed facism as a way to STOP them. Russia is really just a hybrid of socialism and corrupt state capitalism. Heres what Mussolini had to say about state ownership.. “State ownership! It leads only to absurd and monstrous conclusions; state ownership means state monopoly, concentrated in the hands of one party and its adherents, and that state brings only ruin and bankruptcy to all.”― Benito Mussolini. “Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail.” ― Benito Mussolini Anyhow the political/economic system in Russia is nothing like Facism at all. Edited August 29, 2014 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
eyeball Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) In any case the overarching reality is that in virtually all governing systems that human beings labour under the rich and powerful just keep getting more rich and powerful while ordinary people's chances are diminishing. Our so called leaders are like religion, they're all inevitably making things worse no matter who they are or where you go. Edited August 29, 2014 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 In any case the overarching reality is that in virtually all governing systems that human beings labour under the rich and powerful just keep getting more rich and powerful while ordinary people's chances are diminishing. Our so called leaders are like religion, they're all inevitably making things worse no matter who they are or where you go. Social democracies went on a pretty good run between WW2 and 1975! Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Moonlight Graham Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) It's interesting that Putin and the Russian propaganda ministry have thrown this word around so much of late. But while fascism has a broad array of characterstics, the unsettling fact is that if any state in Europe qualifies as fascist it seems to be Russia itself. If it is not a fascist state it certainly is closer than anyone else I can think of in the northern hemisphere. What are the general characteristics of a fascist state? Devotion to a strong, authoritarian ruler? Check. Veneration of the state. Check Focusing economic power and control in the hands of the state. Check Emphasis on nationalism and militarism. Check Having an authoritarian-leaning leader isn't enough for fascism, you need a totalitarian dictator or darn close to one. Being nationalist also isn't enough (many countries are nationalist), fascist states are ultra-nationalist. IE: Russia being for Russians only, and persecuting most non-Russians. Same with "veneration for the state", in fascism citizens need to basically worship and submit to the state as the leader of this grand nationalist movement. Russia has a nationalistic, authoritarian leader, but not so radical right-wing as to be fascist. Meanwhile, research what some of these political leaders/groups in Ukraine believe in, they're true fascists, and they're nuts. Edited August 29, 2014 by Moonlight Graham Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Remiel Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 Since racism is not actually an ideological necessity for nationalism or fascism, I do not see how being racist makes you more nationalist than the nationalists. There is a reason why we have a differentiated expression: ethnic nationalism. Quote
Hudson Jones Posted August 29, 2014 Report Posted August 29, 2014 Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[5][8][9][10] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.[11] -- Wiki Israel. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Argus Posted August 29, 2014 Author Report Posted August 29, 2014 Israel. Speaking of anti-semitism.... Why don't you keep your one-track mind on the numerous I HATE JEWS topics already in place? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 29, 2014 Author Report Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) Having an authoritarian-leaning leader isn't enough for fascism, you need a totalitarian dictator or darn close to one. You're suggesting Putin is not a totalitarian dictator? Being nationalist also isn't enough (many countries are nationalist), fascist states are ultra-nationalist. IE: Russia being for Russians only, and persecuting most non-Russians. Such things don't happen overnight, but one can see the Putin government catering to ultra nationalist elements in Russia, like the Cossacks, and other far right wing groups, and of course we saw Putin today speaking to the Russian equivilent of a Hitler Youth camp. Indeed, even as Moscow fulminates against supposed neo-Nazis and anti-Semites terrorizing Ukraine, its media regularly publishes articles darkly speculating about the allegedly Jewish origin of Russian dissidents and its officials feel no inhibition about making openly anti-Semitic remarks to their foreign interlocutors. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-blank/russias-lurch-toward-fasc_b_5169230.html Like the fascists of the 1930s, Putin believes in the importance of a strong military and is currently overseeing the largest investments in the Russian army since the fall of the Soviet Union. He also shares the fascists’ historical myth-making by implicitly putting himself in a line with past rulers like Peter the Great and Stalin, of whom he speaks admiringly. Putin’s nationalism is well documented, and it has recently taken an expansionist turn similar to Hitler’s. http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2014/05/12/why-it%E2%80%99s-time-start-calling-putin-fascist http://www.interpretermag.com/putins-russia-more-fascist-than-ukraine-comparison-shows/ Edited August 29, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted August 29, 2014 Author Report Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) Russia if anything would be described as state capitalism. The government plays a large direct role in the economy including complete ownership of energy companies, defense companies, banks, transportation. The government directly owns nearly two thirds of the market-capitalization in the Russian stock market. But much of this is a holdover from its communist past, when EVERYTHING was owned by the state. His predecessor started selling things off, it's true, but he hadn't gotten that far along when Putin took over. Besides, you're focussing stricty on economic definitions. At heart, Russia's economis is run by Putin and a coterie of wealthy industrialist suckups, many of them former KGB types he's made very wealthy. Fascism doesn't have a defining model. It has varied from Germany to Spain to Italy, but Putin's Russia shares many, many similarities in its behaviour and thinking. A search for the right historical analogy should focus on the events of Rome in 1919 rather than Sarajevo in 1914. It won't take long for those who step inside the world of echo chambers and metaphors that color Putin's thinking to identify traits that were also present at the birth of fascism. There's Putin's cult of the body, the lofty rhetoric of self-assertion, the denigration of his opponents as degenerates, his contempt for democracy and Western parliamentarianism, his exaggerated nationalism. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/speeches-by-russian-president-putin-betray-fascist-inspiration-a-967283.html Edited August 29, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Hudson Jones Posted August 30, 2014 Report Posted August 30, 2014 Speaking of anti-semitism.... Why don't you keep your one-track mind on the numerous I HATE JEWS topics already in place? Reported. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
Argus Posted August 30, 2014 Author Report Posted August 30, 2014 Reported. You reported yourself for trying to derail the topic to yet another one on Israel? Good for you! Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted August 30, 2014 Report Posted August 30, 2014 Social democracies went on a pretty good run between WW2 and 1975! Yes I suppose they did. There was a planet still near full of natural resources for the easy taking which probably had as much to do with it as anything. Nowadays I bet a social democracy would be hard-pressed to govern it's way out of the unsustainable hole so much of the world is in. OTOH, the asocial democracies presently running the show appear to be doing a stellar job at leading us even farther into it. When the water hole get smaller the animals get meaner so the oligarchs of the world have probably got it made. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Hudson Jones Posted August 30, 2014 Report Posted August 30, 2014 You reported yourself for trying to derail the topic to yet another one on Israel? Good for you! No. I reported you for once again trying to defame me by calling me a Jew hater when I simply mentioning Israel after your own post describing fascism: Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation,[5][8][9][10] and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations. Quote When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it--always. Gandhi
marcus Posted September 5, 2014 Report Posted September 5, 2014 Yes. This is fascism: Israeli military court indicts Palestinian who criticized IDF commander on Facebook Zahada Suheib of Hebron is charged with publishing a message with diplomatic significance, threatening a soldier, insulting a soldier, attempted persuasion to throw an incendiary projectile and calling for holding a march without a permit. The Ofer Military Court decided on Wednesday to ban an arrested Palestinian from entering Facebook after he criticized the commander of the Golani Brigade, and conditioned his release on a bail deposit of NIS 10,000. Only after an appeal was filed did the court decide to void the prohibition on entering Facebook and to reduce the bail to NIS 4,000. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
GostHacked Posted September 5, 2014 Report Posted September 5, 2014 Argus Devotion to a strong, authoritarian ruler? Check. - The US is a little different here, but the authoritarian aspect still exists. Think military officials and unnammed government sources. Veneration of the state. Check - Well, what we see in the west is to trust our government to do the right thing. Is that always the case? But there is a couple different meanings of 'veneration' , which one are you using to describe Putin? Focusing economic power and control in the hands of the state. Check - The US is very similar in that aspect. Merging of corporate and government powers. Prime example is the sub-prime housing bubble and the ongoing bailouts of the US banks. Emphasis on nationalism and militarism. Check - The US is heavy in nationalism, and went militarism after 9/11. Using it as an excuse. You seen what the police look like these days, based on the events in Ferguson. Football games (the big ones) are a good example of this. The permutation of ads for the Army et al are thrown into the mix, trying to create pride in nationalism (through sport and leisure) and pride in the military (via advertising). I would argue that most nations these days are in fact more fascist than democratic. Quote
Argus Posted September 6, 2014 Author Report Posted September 6, 2014 Yes. This is fascism: Israeli military court indicts Palestinian who criticized IDF commander on Facebook Zahada Suheib of Hebron is charged with publishing a message with diplomatic significance, threatening a soldier, insulting a soldier, attempted persuasion to throw an incendiary projectile and calling for holding a march without a permit. Really? People who question governments are not merely indicted by executed all over the world. I guess it's only fadcism when Jews are involved, eh? What's the matter? No one paying attention you in all the 'I hate Israel" threads you have to come here to snivel about it? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted September 6, 2014 Author Report Posted September 6, 2014 Argus GostHacked, tell me, who do you think blew up the World Trade Center? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
GostHacked Posted September 6, 2014 Report Posted September 6, 2014 GostHacked, tell me, who do you think blew up the World Trade Center? Why, so you can ridicule me? All I will say it still today looks like a false flag operation. Meaning perpetuated by rogue elements within the US government and the US intelligence agencies. But interesting choice of words 'blew up'. What do you think? Quote
Argus Posted September 7, 2014 Author Report Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) Why, so you can ridicule me? All I will say it still today looks like a false flag operation. Meaning perpetuated by rogue elements within the US government and the US intelligence agencies. But interesting choice of words 'blew up'. What do you think? I think that you're a conspiracy buff. That's why you can actually believe the nonsense you're posting about the US being a fascist state. Edited September 7, 2014 by Argus Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
jacee Posted September 7, 2014 Report Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) Argus, on 06 Sept 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:GostHacked, tell me, who do you think blew up the World Trade Center? Why, so you can ridicule me? All I will say it still today looks like a false flag operation. Meaning perpetuated by rogue elements within the US government and the US intelligence agencies. But interesting choice of words 'blew up'. What do you think? . Edited September 7, 2014 by jacee Quote
GostHacked Posted September 7, 2014 Report Posted September 7, 2014 I think that your a conspiracy buff. That's why you can actually belief the nonsense you're posting about the US being a fascist state. Well, what do you think happened?? Quote
Rue Posted September 7, 2014 Report Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) Oh so what happened in 9 11. Yah well see this was a thread on whether Russia is a fascist state which unsuccessfully has not worked in being a launching post for yet again making an anti Israel diatribe. So with that in mind, why not continue to ignore the thread and just do what comes natural-come up with a false flag operation that blames Israel and the world's Jews, and avoid discussing the actual topic. There. That was easy, By the way, Joan Rivers was murdered because she was about to reveal the world the real truth, that she was Putin's lover and engineered the whole 9-11 thing with Donald Trump so he could rebuild on the land. This is how she won celebrity apprentice, Regards Brittany Spears (aka deep throat) Edited September 7, 2014 by Rue Quote
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