Ferguson unrest

[Black Dog]

If there are persistent aspects, they are very few. Racism exists on an individual level, but in a very limited capacity in most of the western world.

And your support for this is...?

I mean, I f you define racism as you have to mean one thing and one thing only, it's pretty easy to dismiss it.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Black Dog

[Argus]

I like this definition of enlightened:

"to remove the dimness or blindness (usually figurative) from one's eyes or heart"

So for someone to say they are enlightened, is to say they have been corrected, they have opened their mind, have accepted other explanations. (been humbled)

And when has that ever happened on this site?

[Smallc]

And your support for this is...?

I mean, I f you define racism as you have to mean one thing and one thing only, it's pretty easy to dismiss it.

Well, racism, does, according to the dictionary, have 3 definitions. What I'm talking about is the correct interpretation of the first and third definition, and what you're talking about is the second definition. The word does have several meanings, and it seems to mean different thins to different people. Unless you can point me to the actual evidence the racism as a system is still prevalent the way it was dating back to 50 years ago, I can't see it your way. As Bonam said, the points of view are too far apart.

[Black Dog]

Well, racism, does, according to the dictionary, have 3 definitions. What I'm talking about is the correct interpretation of the first and third definition, and what you're talking about is the second definition. The word does have several meanings, and it seems to mean different thins to different people. Unless you can point me to the actual evidence the racism as a system is still prevalent the way it was dating back to 50 years ago, I can't see it your way. As Bonam said, the points of view are too far apart.

So in your view, it's either Jim Crow laws and redlining (google it) or nothing at all? If racism is not codified in law, it doesn't exist? So the possibility that hundreds of years of slavery, decades of legal discrimination and the social constructions of race those were based on might continue to exert influence on the systems of education, law enforcement and criminal justice, politics, economics etc etc into the present day is completely beyond your conception. That's just incredibly naive.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Black Dog

[Smallc]

So in your view, it's either Jim Crow laws and redlining (google it) or nothing at all? If racism is not codified in law, it doesn't exist? So the possibility that hundreds of years of slavery, decades of legal discrimination and the social constructions of race those were based on might continue to exert influence on the systems of education, law enforcement and criminal justice, politics, economics etc etc into the present day is completely beyond your conception. That's just incredibly naive.

That those things happen is undeniable. That they still shape institutions today is very much up for debate.

[Black Dog]

That those things happen is undeniable. That they still shape institutions today is very much up for debate.

Not really. There's shitloads of examples out there. I could list them off, but I suspect it wouldn't budge you anyway so there's really no point in having this conversation.

[Smallc]

Not really. There's shitloads of examples out there. I could list them off, but I suspect it wouldn't budge you anyway so there's really no point in having this conversation.

Mostly because I probably wouldn't consider them relevant. As Bonam said, completely different versions of reality.

[Black Dog]

Mostly because I probably wouldn't consider them relevant. As Bonam said, completely different versions of reality.

Given that evidence would include the lived experiences of actual black people, your statement speaks volumes.

[Argus]

So in your view, it's either Jim Crow laws and redlining (google it) or nothing at all? If racism is not codified in law, it doesn't exist? So the possibility that hundreds of years of slavery, decades of legal discrimination and the social constructions of race those were based on might continue to exert influence on the systems of education, law enforcement and criminal justice, politics, economics etc etc into the present day is completely beyond your conception. That's just incredibly naive.

And what does any of that have to do with a thug getting shot by a cop he attacked, or a sick guy having a heart attack when police tried to arrest him?

[Smallc]

Given that evidence would include the lived experiences of actual black people, your statement speaks volumes.

I find people's testimony about things to be close to useless.

[On Guard for Thee]

I find people's testimony about things to be close to useless.

If it's useless I wonder then why court's bring people in, make tham take an oath, and then give that useless testimony, and then possibly decide a case based upon it.

[Smallc]

If it's useless I wonder then why court's bring people in, make tham take an oath, and then give that useless testimony, and then possibly decide a case based upon it.

In the absence of other evidence it becomes valuable.

[sharkman]

Mostly because I probably wouldn't consider them relevant. As Bonam said, completely different versions of reality.

But there always is the absolute reality, what really happened. In both cases, juries could not find enough evidence of a crime to send it to trial. That is the bottom line. So what does the left do? Attack the juries, claim "systemic racism", etc. In the Brown case, absolute proof that Brown attacked Wilson in the patrol car meant nothing. Gunshot residue on Brown meant nothing. That Brown had robbed a store just previously meant nothing. That kind of denial can not be reasoned with.

[Smallc]

But there always is the absolute reality, what really happened. In both cases, juries could not find enough evidence of a crime to send it to trial. That is the bottom line. So what does the left do? Attack the juries, claim "systemic racism", etc. In the Brown case, absolute proof that Brown attacked Wilson in the patrol car meant nothing. Gunshot residue on Brown meant nothing. That Brown had robbed a store just previously meant nothing. That kind of denial can not be reasoned with.

That's basically what I was getting at. On this issue, one side isn't living in reality.

[cybercoma]

I find [black] people's testimony about [racism] to be close to useless.

Check your privilege. Damn.

[eyeball]

The only thing I'm denying is that it was necessary to shoot Brown dead. It fits a pattern that is disturbing.

And as I keep pointing out, not every parent that has the cop talk with their kids is black. Trigger happy thuggish cops need to be weeded out or gotten off the streets and the rest need re-educating and retraining. But above all else the entire institution of policing and the people responsible and accountable for it need a complete attitude overhaul.

Edited December 20, 2014 by eyeball

[jbg]

Of course it's what I meant. There's zero evidence to suggest that racism is the cause of Brown or Garner's death. Zero.

Many, not all, that cry racism seem to think that people who play by a different rulebook are exempt from police discipline. That being said, there may be a fear instinct that people have when dealing across color lines, even if unreasonable and wrong.

[Smallc]

Check your privilege. Damn.

That's actually against forum rules. I know because it's the first thing I ever got in trouble for. Check your guilt, and then we'll talk. Lifr experiences and testimony are not generally good evidence.

[sharkman]

That's basically what I was getting at. On this issue, one side isn't living in reality.

I only skimmed your post, indeed that's what you were talking about too.

It's sad and sobering at the same time that so many people are capable of suspending reality so easily.

[cybercoma]

That's actually against forum rules. I know because it's the first thing I ever got in trouble for. Check your guilt, and then we'll talk. Lifr experiences and testimony are not generally good evidence.

You're saying that people experiences are irrelevant when examining their experiences. Racism is experienced by people of colour, but you want to dismiss those experiences. I mean, seriously. If telling you to check your damn privilege when you want to pretend racism doesn't exist, while being entirely dismissive of the experiences of people of colour, then I hope I get banned. Because there has literally never been a better example of white privilege than your argument here. Give your head a shake.

[cybercoma]

I only skimmed your post, indeed that's what you were talking about too.

It's sad and sobering at the same time that so many people are capable of suspending reality so easily.

What's sad is that a bunch of white people are going to sit here and dismiss the experiences of people of colour by pretending that racism doesn't exist or that we're in a post-racial society that is colour blind. Colour blindness is the new racism. It ignores people's lived experiences and trivializes the barriers they face. At best it's gaslighting, at worst it's stunning ignorance and bigotry.

[Smallc]

What's sad is that a bunch of white people are going to sit here and dismiss the experiences of people of colour by pretending that racism doesn't exist or that we're in a post-racial society that is colour blind. Colour blindness is the new racism. It ignores people's lived experiences and trivializes the barriers they face. At best it's gaslighting, at worst it's stunning ignorance and bigotry.

Colour blindness is the new racism. Now if that doesn't top the ridiculous meter, I don't know what does.

The reality is that you don't know our lives or who we are. You don't know our experiences or how they shaped us. You can't help but to see things in colour and that...colours your view.

[Smallc]

You're saying that people experiences are irrelevant when examining their experiences. Racism is experienced by people of colour, but you want to dismiss those experiences. I mean, seriously. If telling you to check your damn privilege when you want to pretend racism doesn't exist, while being entirely dismissive of the experiences of people of colour, then I hope I get banned. Because there has literally never been a better example of white privilege than your argument here. Give your head a shake.

I get told that things that aren't racist are in fact racist all of the time. I don't buy some of it, and some of it I do. I can see why someone who has experienced racism would wake up looking for it, but I don't. Because of that it allows me to look at it and make a determination based on what happened.

[Smallc]

You know, I did have a pretty good life though. My dad on the other hand, lived in abject poverty (which is why he spends so much money now) and my grandmother litterally had to walk bare foot through the snow to school. All my life I've lived with people who were a different colour than me. So did my parents, and so did my grandparents. I was taught to never look at them as being different than me and to treat them as I would treat anyone else. To you that's privelage. To me, it only makes sense. Your arguments and views only serve to continue an unhappy past that we should all learn from and grow away from. You and so many on the left with your paternalism and mocking dismissives are really standing in the way of progress.

[cybercoma]

For the millionth time: your problem is that you do not understand or care to understand systemic or institutional racism.