ASIP Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 (edited) BUK missile launcher is what the rebels have. If you mean taken in Donetsk, the vehicle was disabled and not working. Rebels told that in an interview. And no missiles. Your claim was about missiles - your claim is wrong. Edited July 19, 2014 by ASIP Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 It is absolutely unreasonable to assume that an alcoholic or a thug (this is the local content of the rebels) could score a hit from a complex anti-aircraft system, which he never used when served in the armed forces. How are you so sure of that? Do you have proof that no conscripts were ever trained to operate that weapon system? That no one in the separatist region was ever trained on that system by the Ukrainian military? Or that the weapon system crew didn't desert to the separatists? Soon enough you might have to actually post some evidence. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
On Guard for Thee Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 We need proof who brought the plane down. If somehow they can get their hands on that BUK and can match it to the radar trace they already have, we'd be well on the way to at least close to proof. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 You have no idea what you are talking about. Seems to me it is you who lacks the idea... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
WestCoastRunner Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 If somehow they can get their hands on that BUK and can match it to the radar trace they already have, we'd be well on the way to at least close to proof. And I suspect the U.S. already have that info. They will share that info with a select few and then maybe the public later on. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I've just reported official information from the chief of Ukrainian security service. The telephone calls are on youtube. Care to present that evidence, not that I don't believe you or anything.... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
WestCoastRunner Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Care to present that evidence, not that I don't believe you or anything.... According to ASIP, you must know russian! Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 This never happened. Ukrainian army is in no way broken. Quite an opposite is the case. http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/rebels-capture-three-bases-in-eastern-ukraine-from-government-troops/ http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27693781 Only resently they lost a bunch of bases, with plenty of equipment... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
ASIP Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 You do realize that there are millions of individuals with military experience due to conscription? Not all of those conscripts and former conscripts are on the side of Ukraine so I doubt it would be too hard to find qualified and trained individuals to man any captured weapons. Are you serious? Can you drive a tank? What about a fighter jet? Or you see no difference between a machine gun and a rocket launcher? The rebels "army" never had more than a couple of thousands of former conscripts in its ranks. They are all dead or wounded by now. There is a negligible probability that some of them served as Buk operators. None of them had enough expertise to score a hit from the Buk. Quote
TimG Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Do you understand Russian speech?Just provide the links. Interested posters may know someone who can help them even if they don't understand. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Do you understand Russian speech? Luckily I understand enough Russian to get by... so send them over... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
On Guard for Thee Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 And I suspect the U.S. already have that info. They will share that info with a select few and then maybe the public later on. And I suspect the U.S. already have that info. They will share that info with a select few and then maybe the public later on. Currently I am convinced that it was a tragic accident. None of the three combatants in this scuffle would have anything to gain by knocking down this plane. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Currently I am convinced that it was a tragic accident. None of the three combatants in this scuffle would have anything to gain by knocking down this plane. I agree it was not an intentional act to bring down a passenger flight. Whoever brought it down thought it was a military plane. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
ASIP Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 How are you so sure of that? Do you have proof that no conscripts were ever trained to operate that weapon system? That no one in the separatist region was ever trained on that system by the Ukrainian military? Or that the weapon system crew didn't desert to the separatists? Soon enough you might have to actually post some evidence. No-one should prove that does not exist. If you claim that a rebel could operate a Buk system - you should prove that. Otherwise your assertions are no better than assuming Martians did that. Have there been any Buk exercise in Ukraine in recent years? Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Are you serious? Can you drive a tank? What about a fighter jet? Or you see no difference between a machine gun and a rocket launcher? No I cant drive a tank, because when I was in the Army I was trained as a signaller, but give me a radio and I am a god... Do you understand how the military works? When someone is conscripted they are placed in a trade it could be anything from Rifleman to clerk and everything in between. You don't need one person to know all of those systems, you need people who are trained on a certain piece of kit which you would get should you have a large enough population. The rebels "army" never had more than a couple of thousands of former conscripts in its ranks. They are all dead or wounded by now. There is a negligible probability that some of them served as Buk operators. Do you have Proof that there were never more than a few thousand and that they are all dead now? None of them had enough expertise to score a hit from the Buk. Do you know every single member of the separatists? If you do I think the Ukrainian military might find you pretty useful. Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 If you mean taken in Donetsk, the vehicle was disabled and not working. Rebels told that in an interview. And no missiles. Your claim was about missiles - your claim is wrong. Do you think that the separatists are idiot monkeys who cant fix a vehicle? Or that if there was a vehicle captured that there would be missiles nearby? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
ASIP Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/rebels-capture-three-bases-in-eastern-ukraine-from-government-troops/ http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27693781 Only resently they lost a bunch of bases, with plenty of equipment... You missed the point. 1. These are not army. These are border guards and jail guards. 2. They did not switched to rebels. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 No-one should prove that does not exist. If you claim that a rebel could operate a Buk system - you should prove that. Otherwise your assertions are no better than assuming Martians did that. Have there been any Buk exercise in Ukraine in recent years? I cant prove that a rebel can operate the Buk, just like you CAN NOT prove that they can't operate the system.... And what do Buk exercises have to do with anything? Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
WestCoastRunner Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 You missed the point. 1. These are not army. These are border guards and jail guards. 2. They did not switched to rebels. Where is your evidence? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Are you serious? Can you drive a tank? What about a fighter jet? Or you see no difference between a machine gun and a rocket launcher? The rebels "army" never had more than a couple of thousands of former conscripts in its ranks. They are all dead or wounded by now. There is a negligible probability that some of them served as Buk operators. None of them had enough expertise to score a hit from the Buk. So what is it that you are trying to say? Can you let us know your thoughts on who shot down the plane? And it sounds like you also have evidence. Can you provide evidence of that as well? Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
On Guard for Thee Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 I agree it was not an intentional act to bring down a passenger flight. Whoever brought it down thought it was a military plane. This is only a sidebar, but as a pilot I wonder how they decided to allow flights through that airspace above 32,000 ft. without knowing the BUK can reach up to about 72,000. Somebody wasn't doing the homework apparently. Quote
ASIP Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 Luckily I understand enough Russian to get by... so send them over... A fragment from 9:30 to 11:40. Further comments are partially in Ukrainian. Quote
Signals.Cpl Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 You missed the point. 1. These are not army. These are border guards and jail guards. I think that you missed the point, if I'm not mistaken the National guard is now working as part of the Military so it makes it an army base... 2. They did not switched to rebels. Prove it... prove that noone in the Ukrainian military since the beginning of this mess has deserted... Seems to me you are short on facts but heavy on opinions... funny how you make statements you cannot prove and expect someone to disprove them... Quote Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst
Shady Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 The solution is crippling economic sanctions put in place on Russia's energy industry, coupled with a massive expansion of oil and natural gas exploration and extraction in North America, to export to Europe, in place of the energy they'll lose from Russian supply. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 19, 2014 Report Posted July 19, 2014 This is only a sidebar, but as a pilot I wonder how they decided to allow flights through that airspace above 32,000 ft. without knowing the BUK can reach up to about 72,000. Somebody wasn't doing the homework apparently. Apparently, they were doing nothing wrong. This airspace was supposedly 'safe'. However, I understand that many airlines had already decided to avoid this airspace. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
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