Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Keep in mind people have made these claims about every single group of immigrants in history... That they would form enclaves, and that they had odd customs etc. Its partially true for the first generation of immigrants sometimes but almost never true for the next. What happened in the past might not necessarily happen in the present. Past generations of immigrants did not have the ability to keep returning home, or to take their kids home to get them 'proper' wives/husbands. They couldn't watch TV and movies from home every day, listen to radio from home, talk to home, read a continuing stream of newspaper and magazines from home... And ultimately, when their kids went to school they'd learn a lot more English. But what if the kids go to school and 90% of the other children are immigrants? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Black Dog Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Balkanization is the term. Whole groups with different languages, different cultures, different ideas, some of them completely contrary to each other and to us. How this is supposed to inspire unity is beyond me. Who is "us" here? Quote
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 I am a little concerned that we would differentiate between multi-cultural and other canadians. It bothers me that we continue to separate these threads between 'identifying as canadians' and multicultural'. Are we not all canadians? Why do we need to separate these threads? There are two streams of thought. One stream, embraced by those who support multiculturalism and immigration, is that a Canadian is simply someone who has the paperwork. Others see someone who has arrived from, say, China, does not speak English, lives in a Chinese enclave watching tv from China, speaks only to other Chinese, has a Chinese business with only Chinese customers, reads newspapers from China, and goes home a few times a year to visit family, and ask -- in what way is this person a Canadian? He shares none of our cultural traits or behaviours. He is in every single way, culturally, linguistically and emotionally, a Chinese man. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 ... It is ironic that you imply that those that disagree with your interpretation of 'multiculturalism' are bigots, while in the other thread you were upset that I dared to call some of your claims 'nonsense'. There are many people who oppose the concept of multiculturalism. Some are bigots, some are isolationists, some use an economic argument and some are just uncomfortable living with people who do not look like they do. To each, their view is a valid as any other. I agree - everyone has the right to their opinion. I lived in rural Ontario and see the difficulty people have with minority groups and other cultures. Most do not understand and I believe fear what they do not understand. They see what is happening in cities and are afraid that their way of life is being threatened. I certainly do not discount their feelings and understand why they feel the way that they do. There is a fine line between being a bigot or a nationalist or patriot - it depends on one's definition. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 What limits? I think what he means is being tolerant and respectful of other cultural habits has a limit, as in, we won't respect it if your cultural habit is to cut off little girls' clitorises or beat your daughter to death because she has offended your family's honour. Ya like those Scottish, eh? ... friggen caterwauling pipes hurt your ears from blocks away, now that's a lethal weapon in disguise! very disagreeable ... and the men wearing skirts fercrissakes! oughta be illegal! ... and eating porridge in a cow stomach, gagmewithaspoon ... absolutely abhorrent!! I've always found it interesting about knee-jerk leftists that they're shrill in their denunciations of any sort of bigotry -- but only if it's directed at non-white people. They don't have any issue with mocking, sneering and insulting groups which are 'white'. I don't know ... ya ok I guess we should kick the bigots out ... but how can we tell who they are ? They're mostly all white, and they all look the same! In my life, all of the worst bigots I've ever known have been immigrants, and non-white. Most of the Africans and Arabs are pretty open about hating and despising Jews (no, not Israelis, Jews), for example. African Blacks are contemptuous of Carribean Blacks. Asians seem contemptuous of all Blacks. And an awful lot, in unguarded moments, will confess the contempt they feel for a lot of Whites, for how white women behave, in particular, and how unmanly white men are to allow this behaviour. In point of fact, I never met an immigrant from the middle east or Africa who didn't think all White women in Canada were arrogant whores. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Cite? Overrun ... how? If they accept and respect the 'treaty' (Constitution/Charter) we offer, they're not overrunning us ... they are becoming 'us' ... Canadian. There is this perceptioin among some that Canada is just a place on a map, and Canadian is just a person with a piece of paper. Nothing special about either of them and nothing worth nothing or preserving. I disagree entirely. There was a study done a short time ago. I could probably find it. It was done for the Quebec government and was on using immigration to defeat the low birth rate. The study basically concluded that if you bring over too many immigrants what you're doing, in effect, is supplanting the local population with a different people. Thus whatever exists in the way of local culture is wiped away by all the newcomers. If Pierre Trudeau, who opened up immigration to the third world, had made a speech in Vancouver or Toronto back in 1970 and told them that if he had his way immigration would bring over so many Asian, African and Carribean newcomers that in a generation, native born Canadians would be a minority in their own cities, he'd have been lynched on the spot. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Here are some studies: The first two suggest 350,000: http://www.td.com/document/PDF/economics/special/ff912_immigration_levels.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp6743.pdf There is definitely room for improvement in our system: http://www.td.com/document/PDF/economics/special/ff0212_immigration.pdf But the government seems to be planning: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/backgrounders/2013/2013-06-21.asp You completely ignored his question. The question is about the integration of newcomers with respect to Canada's existing cultural milleau. All your cites deal with the macroeconomic need for more immigrants to join the labour force. None deals with integration, though the third one does mention that there has only ever been one study on integreation and it was probably skewed by the economy at the time and all the IT workers coming over. It's a given that as far as business is concerned, the more immigrants the better. More immigrants means more customers and cheaper employees. What's not to like? Do you believe that what's good for corporate Canada is good for the rest of us? I have my doubts. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Who is "us" here? Native born Canadians who have no other 'culture' but Canadian. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PoliticalAtheist Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Hello everyone, I'm new here... But I've been debating this topic with my brother lately.. and I would actually like to hear concrete, REAL, MEASURABLE advantages brought on to us by multiculturalism and also the diversity that it brings. I've always been on the side that multiculturalism is a strength, but when challenged on it... I invariably fail at citing good arguments... especially when it comes to trying to convert others (like my brother)... I'm beginning to doubt my own reasons in fact.... So can anyone can produce a shortlist ? Quote
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 So can anyone can produce a shortlist ? To my knowledge, there is no proveable advantage to multiculturalism, particularly so because, as has been demonstrated, we do not have a definition of multiculturalism. People will suggest certain things, such as being able to engage in international trade better because of so many strong ethnic groups, but there's never, to my knowledge, been any studies which prove this out. Some people speak glowingly of quaint foreign restaurants, which I think is pretty shallow. The only point of multiculturalism, to my mind, would be to encourage individual respect and to reduce tensions among different ethnic groups and between them and native born Canadians in the transition to those newcomers adopting Canadian ways and slowly abandoning the old ways from their homelands. Using multiculturalism to extend those cultures here, to reinforce them, to alleviate the necccesity for immigrants to learn Canadian languages and ways would be, to my mind, a foolish thing to do. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
carepov Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Others see someone who has arrived from, say, China, does not speak English, lives in a Chinese enclave watching tv from China, speaks only to other Chinese, has a Chinese business with only Chinese customers, reads newspapers from China, and goes home a few times a year to visit family, and ask -- in what way is this person a Canadian? He shares none of our cultural traits or behaviours. He is in every single way, culturally, linguistically and emotionally, a Chinese man. Who the heck are you talking about here? These people do not exist in any significant numbers in our society: "According to the 2011 census, 98.2% of Canadian residents have knowledge of one or both of the country’s two official languages" http://en.wikipedia....uages_of_Canada There is this perceptioin among some that Canada is just a place on a map, and Canadian is just a person with a piece of paper. Nothing special about either of them and nothing worth nothing or preserving. I disagree entirely. I agree with you but here's the twist. IMO and experience, immigrants and first generation Canadians value Canada MORE than the average Canadian. They typically know more about Canadian politics and history. The certainly appreciate (do not take for granted) Canada's security and economic opportunity and inclusiveness. Quote
PoliticalAtheist Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) "The only point of multiculturalism, to my mind, would be to encourage individual respect and to reduce tensions among different ethnic groups and between them and native born Canadians in the transition to those newcomers adopting Canadian ways and slowly abandoning the old ways from their homelands." That's not a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism is it?... If the only thing you can point to is that multiculturalism brings about a situation where everyone walks on metaphorical egg shells because of the hightened risk for disunity and tensions it brings... I fail to see how that would constitute a "strength"... nevermind a source of "unity" Edited July 10, 2014 by PoliticalAtheist Quote
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Who the heck are you talking about here? These people do not exist in any significant numbers in our society: "According to the 2011 census, 98.2% of Canadian residents have knowledge of one or both of the country’s two official languages" http://en.wikipedia....uages_of_Canada Have knowledge of English is a pretty damned broad category. I have knowledge of French. I don't speak French, however, and understand it even less. I can read some of it, but I don't. I read English. How much knowledge do these people have, and remember, this is self-reported. How well do they speak and understand English? How often do they use it? How often do they interact with native born Canadians? That's what's important. I agree with you but here's the twist. IMO and experience, immigrants and first generation Canadians value Canada MORE than the average Canadian. They typically know more about Canadian politics and history. The certainly appreciate (do not take for granted) Canada's security and economic opportunity and inclusiveness. I would not say they take those things for granted, either. That does not mean they have abandoned old hatreds or old prejudices, or cultural habits. How do you abandon a cultural belief you grew up with and have lived with all your life until now? Cultural beliefs about women, for example, about the proper ordering of a family, about morality, particularly when they seem to be reinforced by your religion? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 That's not a ringing endorsement for multiculturalism is it?... If the only thing you can point to is that multiculturalism brings about a situation where everyone walks on metaphorical egg shells because of the hightened risk for disunity and tensions it brings... I fail to see how that would constitute a "strength"... nevermind a source of "unity" Well, I"m hardly the person to be defending multiculturalism as an ongoing contributor to unity. I would say that my concept of it is certainly a much better sort of thing than what you would find in certain societies where any newcomers are greeted with suspicion, and their different ways with outrage. Multiculturalism, it seems to me, is built on the somewhat naive belief that all cultures are basically equal. Ie, just because we dissaprove of something which is a part of their culture that does not make us right and them wrong. All are equal, so we should not be encouraging them to abandon their old culture for ours. I simply don't believe in this, especially since the majority of our newcomers are from third world countries, which, by definition, are not as economically, technically or socially advanced as we are. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Perhaps we are not all talking about the same thing. I suggest that we accept the definition as prescribed by our federal government; http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/multiculturalism/citizenship.asp Edited July 10, 2014 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
carepov Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Hello everyone, I'm new here... But I've been debating this topic with my brother lately.. and I would actually like to hear concrete, REAL, MEASURABLE advantages brought on to us by multiculturalism and also the diversity that it brings. I've always been on the side that multiculturalism is a strength, but when challenged on it... I invariably fail at citing good arguments... especially when it comes to trying to convert others (like my brother)... I'm beginning to doubt my own reasons in fact.... So can anyone can produce a shortlist ? It is very difficult to produce measureable advantages of multiculturalism. To me the evidence that Canadian multiculturalism is advantageous is the fact that Canada is successful relative to almost all other countries in the world. I would ask your brother: what are the real, measurable disadvantages of Canadian multiculturalism? Another question: Let's say you are a skilled worker/professional and want to relocate to a different country with a very different culture for whatever reason. All else equal, would you chose to live in a multicultural society or a non-multicultural society? Quote
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Perhaps we are not all talking about the same thing. I suggest that we accept the definition as prescribed by our federal government; http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/multiculturalism/citizenship.asp Unfortunately, such things tend to be political mush, feel-good pablum for the masses designed with a hyper-sensitivity to the thought anyone might object and cause the government of the day bad publicity. For example, we have two seemingly contrary definitions on your cite. Multiculturalism ensures that all citizens can keep their identities, can take pride in their ancestry and have a sense of belonging. Keep their identities and have pride in their ancestors and yet still feel like they belong, okay. But ... Through multiculturalism, Canada recognizes the potential of all Canadians, encouraging them to integrate into their society and take an active part in its social, cultural, economic and political affairs So we recognize they have "potential" and they're to be encouraged to integrate, presumably to fulfil that potential... and yet to retain their identities at the same time? I put it to you that this is logically impossible for some newcomers. Oh, if their culture is fairly simillar to ours, say those from the UK, it could be done, but if their cultural identiy has many elements which are diamentrically opposed to ours then the two concepts can't work. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PoliticalAtheist Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Perhaps we are not all talking about the same thing. I suggest that we accept the definition as prescribed by our federal government; http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/multiculturalism/citizenship.asp Again... this isn't really concrete or specific, it's more a sort of weak theoretical skeleton... Also... If we accept that all cultures are equal... then in what way does having people from OTHER cultures benefit us? What does it matter if the difference between a native canadian and a haitian say are ZERO. Why make it a point to bring Haitians in then? How did we come to the conclusion that a monoculture is INFERIOR or less desirable to a multiculture? Furthermore: that speaks nothing to specific contributions of multiculturalism: does it increase group cohesion, does it increase corn yields, does it make business run smoother... I'm looking for real examples that can be listed in support of our multicultural policy... I mean surely there must be some? Quote
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 It is very difficult to produce measureable advantages of multiculturalism. To me the evidence that Canadian multiculturalism is advantageous is the fact that Canada is successful relative to almost all other countries in the world. I don't think we're more succesful than the Nordic countries, and in any event, success is defined in many different ways. Is Iceland succesful? They don't accept immigrants. They're a homogenous society. Japan has been hugely succesful, absent its relatively recent issues with population growth. And they also take no immigrants. South Korea is hugely succesful, as well. Another question: Let's say you are a skilled worker/professional and want to relocate to a different country with a very different culture for whatever reason. All else equal, would you chose to live in a multicultural society or a non-multicultural society? In my experience, skilled professionals relocate to wherever there is a really good economic and professional opportunity. In any event, most of our immigrants are not skilled professionals. As of May 1, 2014 the Federal Skilled Worker Class opened once again accepting 25,000 applicants with intake caps at 1000 per category http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada#Immigration_rate Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
carepov Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 So we recognize they have "potential" and they're to be encouraged to integrate, presumably to fulfil that potential... and yet to retain their identities at the same time? I put it to you that this is logically impossible for some newcomers. Oh, if their culture is fairly simillar to ours, say those from the UK, it could be done, but if their cultural identiy has many elements which are diamentrically opposed to ours then the two concepts can't work. They do it on Little Mosque... People do it in real life all the time. Here's one person: http://www.canadianmomeh.com/open-letter-to-pauline-marois/ Quote
Big Guy Posted July 10, 2014 Author Report Posted July 10, 2014 ... I put it to you that this is logically impossible for some newcomers. Oh, if their culture is fairly simillar to ours, say those from the UK, it could be done, but if their cultural identiy has many elements which are diamentrically opposed to ours then the two concepts can't work. ... Perhaps you are correct. Some newcomers have great difficulty in adapting to cultural norms that are different from what they are accustomed to. I do believe that the vast majority of immigrants come here and try to fit into our mix rather than try to change our culture to that of the area that they fled. That has been my observation. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Perhaps we are not all talking about the same thing. I suggest that we accept the definition as prescribed by our federal government; http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/multiculturalism/citizenship.asp I think what's more relevant is why people move which is usually for purely selfish economic reasons - something our culture usually encourages and embraces with open arms every waking minute of every day. If individual greed actually isn't good then perhaps someone who is against immigration could explain why. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
PoliticalAtheist Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 It is very difficult to produce measureable advantages of multiculturalism. To me the evidence that Canadian multiculturalism is advantageous is the fact that Canada is successful relative to almost all other countries in the world. I would ask your brother: what are the real, measurable disadvantages of Canadian multiculturalism? Another question: Let's say you are a skilled worker/professional and want to relocate to a different country with a very different culture for whatever reason. All else equal, would you chose to live in a multicultural society or a non-multicultural society? To the best of my knowledge, that's not AT ALL the way our immigration system is designed... and it's not the way our government sells it to us. The official position: is that we benefit from multiculturalism- that without people from other cultures (not skills), canada would be weak and our economy presumably compromised... We take on immigrants with oftentimes no language skills... nevermind education- we take in people from Haiti, Jamaica, Somalia, etc... the overwhelming majority of which have no skills at all. Why? Surely there must be a reason, and I would hope that it's because these people add to our multiculturalism: but again: specifically, exactly WHAT is it in this multiculturalism that contributes to our commonwealth? Quote
Argus Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 I think what's more relevant is why people move which is usually for purely selfish economic reasons - something our culture usually encourages and embraces with open arms every waking minute of every day. If individual greed actually isn't good then perhaps someone who is against immigration could explain why. Everyone everywhere, except the losers, is constantly seeking to improve their lives. Nothing wrong with that. However, the question you need to ask is, if it's in the interest of some third world guy to come to Canada, does that necessarily make it in my interest for him to come here? And should not my interest outweigh his? I am a citizen of this country after all. The government is there to represent the interest of me and other citizens, not the interest of some non-citizen somewhere else. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted July 10, 2014 Report Posted July 10, 2014 Everyone everywhere, except the losers, is constantly seeking to improve their lives. Nothing wrong with that. However, the question you need to ask is, if it's in the interest of some third world guy to come to Canada, does that necessarily make it in my interest for him to come here? And should not my interest outweigh his? I am a citizen of this country after all. The government is there to represent the interest of me and other citizens, not the interest of some non-citizen somewhere else. Yes but as you well know our government actually caters to the interests of people well above our pay-grade - our interests are clearly outweighed by people with more influence than you or me. Perhaps a better question would be what's in it for our so-called representatives? You and me are just Earthlings, cogs in an economic world which is practically border-less for money and corporations seeking to improve their lives. Why it shouldn't be just as border-less for human beings is beyond me, after all we're people too. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
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