Khadr Wins Transfer

[cybercoma]

"The left" is protected by law. Kind of like other endangered animals.

The same law protects you, even if you're hell bent on destroying it.

[On Guard for Thee]

If Afghanistan was 'his country' then he should go live there. As to the appeal, the government really has no choice, whatever its own feelings. The system whereby Canadians convicted of crimes in the US are allowed to serve their time in Canada closer to their relatives would be on pretty shaky ground if some Canadian court could simply release those criminals without any government response. Even with the government fighting it such a release might cause damage to that agreement since it is predicated on the assumption the individuals will be required to serve their time here, not be quickly released because of different judicial interpretations.

A load of BS. We have a court system that operates independently. (thankfully) The government certainly has a choice. Gitmo itself would be illegal under Canadian law. Ever heard of habeas corpus...If you like US style law, go and live there.

[cybercoma]

Gitmo was illegal under US law too. That's why they changed the law and that's why it wasn't in the United States.

[On Guard for Thee]

Gitmo was illegal under US law too. That's why they changed the law and that's why it wasn't in the United States.

Thats true. Bush decided he had the authority to annul HC with the stroke of a pen. I have heard bits of the legal debate on whether or not Gitmo constitutes US soil or not. Its interesting for sure ad I wonder if it has or will ever come into focus of the ICC.

[Rue]

There are several issues. In regards to the legal one, and only the legal one, it will be impossible to prevent his release. The law is clear on how its to be applied and the only way his release could be stopped would be to change the laws retroactively to change the standard of release criteria and the Charter won't allow that. The law as it is written assures his release. No amount of politics can change that.

Yes of course it is political with an election coming up for Harper to appeal and sound tough. Of course. Its pure partisanship.

That all said, some of us think there is something wrong with our laws and how they handle terrorism.

We have international war conventions that were drafted for conventional military soldiers and conventional wars. We have no international laws that define how to treat terrorists who operate outside all international and domestic laws and in the absence of such laws terrorists are either prosecuted under domestic criminal law or they fall outside the legal systems under international law at this time.

The US had two choices it faced at the time it captured Kadr. One was to treat Kadr because he was 15 and as an enemy combatant because as IPEI rightfully pointed out as a 15 year old the was old enough for that designation.

That would have required arresting him as a Prisoner of War, at all times keeping him in a military prison, and releasing him after the war was over. The problem is there was no declared war really and of course eventually they would have to release him and the US did not want to release him..

The other avenue was to hand him over to the Afghanis as a criminal having violated Afghani criminal laws but the US did not want to do that-they wanted him as their prisoner, indefinitely in captivity..

So George Bush tried to create a third option and create a new legal system mixing domestic criminal law with military law. The problem is it violated the US constitution for failing to fully disclose to aadr the evidence being used against him.

As well it was argued confessions were obtained out of him by illegal interrogation techniques or torture The Bush regime lawyers tried to restate these techniques as not constituting torture but the US Supreme Court 4 times told Bus his rewrites were unconstitutional.

To make things worse the other allied armed forces pulled their prisoners out of G Bay in Cuba and because Canadian law is closer to British law it was clear Kadr remaining in G Bay indefinitely would have been challenged at the Supreme Court and probably he would have been ordered released.

So Harper who tried to avoid bringing him back as long as he could had no choice particularly after Obama said, take him I want to close down G Bay and this is the same Obama who does not think the word Muslim and terrorist should be mixed together and who stayed away from the commemoration of the Armenian genocide and refused to walk with leaders in a show of solidarity against terrorism in Paris.

As I stated Canadian law on this matter is much closer if not identical to British law and had we tried to keep him in G Bay indefinitely that would have led to a Supreme Court of Canada decision saying release him. Harper knew that. His hands were tied. He also knows his hands are tied and Kadr will walk. Its a legal fait accompli.

Kadr is only Canadian. However it does not mean he can not be extradited to Afghanistan or for that matter Egypt. Both countries in theory could ask he be sent to their countries for prosecution.

Kadr's father was Egyptian, and technically he could be defined by Egypt, because of that as Egyptian and a terrorist under their law.

Personally I would love to see him sent to Egypt and rot in a prison the rest of his life but that will not happen for obvious political reasons. Also for obvious reasons he won't be sent back to Afghanistan and charged as a criminal because I s feared he would be liberated by the Taliban..

What is going to happen is he will be released, go to high school, have his university education, food,clothing paid for, and he will eventually become a teacher or some kind of academic preaching his extremist views which HAVE NEVER changed.

This is Canada. We have no shortage of people who will define him as a victim, a cuddly, misunderstood boy who now only wants to be Canadian.

Its absurd. This man in repeated interviews has stated his extremist views have not changed and he would do what he did again if he has the chance.

His family sits in a house in Brampton, Ontario, living off of the state insulting this country and denouncing its values and ironically they are Egyptian citizens who choose to stay in Canada with their dual citizenship.

For those depicting Kadr as a misunderstood cuddly boy, he's not. He is a time bomb. He is no different then idiots who find wolf puppies and think they can raise them as pets. Oh look how cute.

Canadians are sheltered. They have not had to live with and therefore understand what makes a terrorist and how it doesn't magically stop once you leave jail.

This is an unrepentant violent man and because of our freedoms and democracy as ironic as that may be, he will exploit those freedoms and fully enjoy everything he sought to negate and destroy for others. This is a man to this day who denounces our nation's laws but sucks off them everything he can for his own advantage.

The Muslim community has offered to take him in. Some in the community are as dangerous as him and identify with him and think he is a hero. Others are genuinely trying to rehabilitate him to their brand of islam which denounces terror and they feel it their obligation to de-terrorize him so to speak because they take collective responsibility for what he did. They mean well and at one level I support their efforts and understand they want to show him Islam is peaceful not violent. I get that. I respect that but I don' think its realistic.

As for the non Muslims who coddle him like a wolf pup, they have no clue what he was brought up on, what is in his genes, and the behaviour inherent in him that will never be undone. They see him as a play toy to assuage their own guilt. Bad is only bad until you hug it and then poof it becomes good. Uh no. You don't magically stop being a terrorist.

Kadr will one day repeat his hatred and spread the seed in others. Whether he reoffends we shall wait and see. I personally do not think he has the guts to leave Canada and head to ISIL now. All the molly coddling and attention he gets makes him arrogant and soft.Why go fight when he can get a free education, work, and be treated as a hero martyr. He's got a great gig going on. Its only a matter of time until he does the talk show circuit, writes a book, has a t.v. show, stars in a movie.

Sound cynical you bet. On the other hand the very laws he mocks are what is the difference between us and what he chooses to this day piss on.

I see no solution but him on the outside making a mockery of our system until he either chooses to implode and self destruct or lash out and that will happen eventually unless you believe in miracles abd believe the moderate Muslims can turn him and salvage him and it would have to come from them-no guilt ridden liberal bleeding heart is going to understand his psyche..

He is not going to go into the sunset and learn to drink Tim Horton's and play hockey that I can promise you.

Me personally I would send him to Egypt and Say Col.Sisi, take the sob. However it aint happening.

The law does not permit we lower ourself to Kadr's chosen standards and I get that.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Rue

[Argus]

A load of BS. We have a court system that operates independently. (thankfully) The government certainly has a choice. Gitmo itself would be illegal under Canadian law. Ever heard of habeas corpus...If you like US style law, go and live there.

The point is that if this happens much the Americans will simply cancel the agreement and Canadians who get into trouble in Texas or Alaska will damned well serve their time in Texas or Alaska, Period. It would be a pity if that happened because of some foreign extremist nobody here wants in Canada anyway.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Argus

[On Guard for Thee]

There are several issues. In regards to the legal one, and only the legal one, it will be impossible to prevent his release. The law is clear on how its to be applied and the only way his release could be stopped would be to change the laws retroactively to change the standard of release criteria and the Charter won't allow that. The law as it is written assures his release. No amount of politics can change that.

Yes of course it is political with an election coming up for Harper to appeal and sound tough. Of course. Its pure partisanship.

That all said, some of us think there is something wrong with our laws and how they handle terrorism.

We have international war conventions that were drafted for conventional military soldiers and conventional wars. We have no international laws

that define how to treat terrorists who operate outside all international and domestic laws.

Beorge Bush's regime tried to create a hybrid military type law that was part military law, part civil law but it failed the US constitution time and time again because it did not allow full disclosure of the evidence being used against Kadr. That rendered the Bush laws unconstitutional.

The US had two choices. They could have treated Kadr because he was 15 and as IPEI rightfully pointed out as a combatant under the Geneva convention. That would have required arresting him as a Prisoner of War, at all times keeping him in a military prison, and releasing him after the war is over. The problem is there was no declared war really but eventually they would have to release him.

The other avenue was to hand him over to the Afghanis as a criminal having violated Afghani criminal laws.

Those were the 2 legal options. The third which was an attempt to create a new law half way between US criminal law for civilians and the othr have from military law did not mesh because of the lack of full disclosure of evidence against him as I said.

What also put a nail in the American legal manouvers was there using specific interrogation techniques. The Bush regime lawyers tried to restate them as not being torture but that failed.

To make things worse the other allied armed forces pulled their prisoners out of G Bay in Cuba.

Canadian law on this matter is much closer if not identical to British law and had we tried to keep him in G Bay indefinitely that would have led to a Supreme Court of Canada decision saying release him. Harper knew that. His hands were tied when he brought him back and it was also done because Obama got elected and his bias to release Kadr and the other prisoners is well known.

Now we have Kadr who yes is only Canadian. However it does not mean he can not be extradited to Afghanistan or for that matter Egypt. Both countries in theory could ask he be sent to their countries for prosecution.

Kadr's father was Egyptian, and technically he could be defined by Egypt, because of that as Egyptian and a terrorist under their law.

Personally I would love to see him sent to Egypt and rot in a prison the rest of his life.

That will not happen.

What is going to happen is he will be released, go to high school, have his university education, food,clothing paid for, and he will eventually become a teacher or some kind of academic preaching his extremist views which HAVE NEVER changed.

This is Canada. We have no shortage of people who will define him as a victim, a cuddly, misunderstood boy who now only wants to be Canadian.

Its absurd. This man in repeated interviews has stated his extremist views have not changed and he would do what he did again if he has the chance.

His family sits in a house in Brampton, living off of the state insulting this country and denouncing its values and ironically they are Egyptian citizens who choose to stay in Canada with their dual citizenship.

For those depicting Kadr as a misunderstood cuddly boy, he's not. He is a time bomb. He is no different then idiots who find wolf puppies and think they can raise them as pets. Oh look how cute.

Canadians are sheltered. They have not had to live with and therefore understand what makes a terrorist and how it doesn't magically stop once you leave jail.

This is an unrepentant violent man and because of our freedoms and democracy as ironic as that may be, he will exploit those freedoms and fully enjoy everything he sought to negate and destroy for others. This is a man to this day who denounces our nation's laws but sucks off them everything he can for his own advantage.

The Muslim community has offered to take him in. Some in the community are as dangerous as him and identify with him and think he is a hero. Others

are genuinely trying to rehabilitate him to their brand of islam which denounces terror and they feel it their obligation to de-terrorize him so to speak because they take collective responsibility for what he did. They mean well.

As for the non Muslims who coddle him like a wolf pup, they have no clue what he was brought up on, what is in his genes, and the behaviour inherent in him that will never be undone. They see him as a play toy to assuage their own guilt. Bad is only bad until you hug it and then poof it becomes good.

Kadr will one day repeat his hatred and spread the seed in others. Whether he reoffends we shall wait and see. I personally do not think he has the guts to leave Canada and head to ISIL now. All the molly coddling and attention he gets makes him arrogant and soft.Why go fight when he can get a free education, work, and be treated as a hero martyr. He's got a great gig going on. Its only a matter of time until he does the talk show circuit, writes a book, has a t.v. show, stars in a movie.

Sound cynical you bet. On the other hand the very laws he mocks are what is the difference between us and what he chooses to this day piss on.

I see no solution but him on the outside making a mockery of our system until he either chooses to implode and self destruct or lash out and that will happen eventually. He is not going to go into the sunset and learn to drink Tim Horton's and play hockey.

I yet another long winded screed you have tried to convince us you are apparently an expert in among other things, genetics, mind reading, law, religion, etc., etc. Khadr is being processed through the same court system as anyone else would be in his situation. Be thankful we dont have phony illegal setups like Gitmo. At least not yet.

[On Guard for Thee]

The point is that if this happens much the Americans will simply cancel the agreement and Canadians who get into trouble in Texas or Alaska will damned well serve their time in Texas or Alaska, Period. It would be a pity if that happened because of some foreign extremist nobody here wants in Canada anyway.

Yet another bigoted comment. Who the hell gave you the right to speak for everybody in Canada...

[GostHacked]

A load of BS. We have a court system that operates independently. (thankfully) The government certainly has a choice. Gitmo itself would be illegal under Canadian law. Ever heard of habeas corpus...If you like US style law, go and live there.

News flash. Habeas Corpas has been declared null and void via the PATRIOT ACT and the NDAA. GITMO should be illegal under US law. Holding people in a prison in a country that the USA has a decades old trade embargo on. Sure, nothing hypocritical or ironic about that at all.

[Argus]

Yet another bigoted comment. Who the hell gave you the right to speak for everybody in Canada...

Is bigoted the only word you actually have in your vocabulary for everything you don't like? Which part of my statement do you find 'bigoted', the part where the US might decide to cancel an agreement on prisoner exchanges if we start releasing them? Or would it be that Canadians don't give a damn about Khadr, which numerous polls have shown? And why would saying that be bigoted? Lots of people don't like terrorists or Muslim extremists. Do you feel it's 'bigoted" to not like terrorists? Do you feel it's 'bigoted' to not like self admitted Muslim extremists?"

Or do you still simply believe it's bigoted to say anything disapproving of anyone who isn't white and Christian for any reason whatsoever, no matter what their crimes or behaviour? Is that the simplistic, paternalistic argument you're trying to put forward here?

Edited April 26, 2015 by Argus

[GostHacked]

Is bigoted the only word you actually have in your vocabulary for everything you don't like? Which part of my statement do you find 'bigoted', the part where the US might decide to cancel an agreement on prisoner exchanges if we start releasing them? Or would it be that Canadians don't give a damn about Khadr, which numerous polls have shown? And why would saying that be bigoted? Lots of people don't like terrorists or Muslim extremists. Do you feel it's 'bigoted" to not like terrorists? Do you feel it's 'bigoted' to not like self admitted Muslim extremists?"

Or do you still simply believe it's bigoted to say anything disapproving of anyone who isn't white and Christian for any reason whatsoever, no matter what their crimes or behaviour? Is that the simplistic, paternalistic argument you're trying to put forward here?

There is disproving of what some do in the name of said religion, then there is the slanting of ALL people of said religion. But no one here does that right?

[On Guard for Thee]

Is bigoted the only word you actually have in your vocabulary for everything you don't like? Which part of my statement do you find 'bigoted', the part where the US might decide to cancel an agreement on prisoner exchanges if we start releasing them? Or would it be that Canadians don't give a damn about Khadr, which numerous polls have shown? And why would saying that be bigoted? Lots of people don't like terrorists or Muslim extremists. Do you feel it's 'bigoted" to not like terrorists? Do you feel it's 'bigoted' to not like self admitted Muslim extremists?"

Or do you still simply believe it's bigoted to say anything disapproving of anyone who isn't white and Christian for any reason whatsoever, no matter what their crimes or behaviour? Is that the simplistic, paternalistic argument you're trying to put forward here?

I guess...foreign extremist nobody wants in Canada..... was my first clue. I, like many others here just call a spade a spade.

[Topaz]

On Friday, MP Roxy James went on and one about this guy and that the Harper government was going to stopped it from happening. She said he is guilty of murder and has pleaded guilty to that. Now unless she been in outer space, she dam well knows he HAD to plead guilty to get out of jail and back here in Canada, even though the Tories didn't want him back. IF he is guilty of murder, than everyone of those guys in that war is guilty too and besides that, there's no actual proof he did kill anyone. The lawyer has offered for him to live with the lawyer family, so he can go to school and get an education and I hope the people he comes in contact with, will give him a break and a chance to prove himself.

[On Guard for Thee]

On Friday, MP Roxy James went on and one about this guy and that the Harper government was going to stopped it from happening. She said he is guilty of murder and has pleaded guilty to that. Now unless she been in outer space, she dam well knows he HAD to plead guilty to get out of jail and back here in Canada, even though the Tories didn't want him back. IF he is guilty of murder, than everyone of those guys in that war is guilty too and besides that, there's no actual proof he did kill anyone. The lawyer has offered for him to live with the lawyer family, so he can go to school and get an education and I hope the people he comes in contact with, will give him a break and a chance to prove himself.

Lets hope he doesnt run into too many Argus types as he tries to reintegrate.

[Hydraboss]

We get a lot of 'garbage' on this site in terms of thread drift and other shit. Let's do something about it and not go off on f'n tangents all the f'n time.

Even if I disagree with a point, as long as it is on topic, then I see no real issue. Usually it is the way in some go about it. Being ultra abrasive and acting like they are an a forum for preschoolers. I thought and hope we are still all adults here.

You know what, GH, your self-righteousness is enough to make one vomit from time to time. You feel the need to "call me out" on a couple of posts where you obviously didn't follow the preceding conversation, do you? The moment anyone feels the need to be spoken down to by you I'm sure they'll let you know. Go back and read my posts again beginning on the previous page - Eyeball is more than capable of handling his own exchanges and responding in kind, which is exactly what I did.

I wasn't aware that you had taken over Michael's job. Please have the good grace to inform the rest of us the next time it happens.

Khadr is a terrorist. Khadr should have been executed on the field when the American troops got to him. Khadr most certainly should not be released from his cement bedroom into my town. I agree with another poster here that the best cure for him at this point in time would be for Egypt to ask and be granted his extradition.

I know that doesn't agree with your personal views, nor do I care. The next time you wish to come after me with such bias...don't. You're ill equipped to do it properly.

[On Guard for Thee]

You know what, GH, your self-righteousness is enough to make one vomit from time to time. You feel the need to "call me out" on a couple of posts where you obviously didn't follow the preceding conversation, do you? The moment anyone feels the need to be spoken down to by you I'm sure they'll let you know. Go back and read my posts again beginning on the previous page - Eyeball is more than capable of handling his own exchanges and responding in kind, which is exactly what I did.

I wasn't aware that you had taken over Michael's job. Please have the good grace to inform the rest of us the next time it happens.

Khadr is a terrorist. Khadr should have been executed on the field when the American troops got to him. Khadr most certainly should not be released from his cement bedroom into my town. I agree with another poster here that the best cure for him at this point in time would be for Egypt to ask and be granted his extradition.

I know that doesn't agree with your personal views, nor do I care. The next time you wish to come after me with such bias...don't. You're ill equipped to do it properly.

There is no actual proof that Khadr did what he has been charged with. I suggest you and Argus should join up and exchange phony war stories. That way you wont have to face continuous challenges to the BS.

[Hydraboss]

I welcome any challenge towards my ideas. What I don't welcome is some self-appointed father figure deeming it necessary to scold me. Preschool indeed.

[Argus]

There is disproving of what some do in the name of said religion, then there is the slanting of ALL people of said religion. But no one here does that right?

What has that got to do with the current conversation concerning this particular individual?

[Argus]

I guess...foreign extremist nobody wants in Canada..... was my first clue. I, like many others here just call a spade a spade.

So you've got nothing, then? You were just breaking wind over the internet - again.

[Argus]

Lets hope he doesnt run into too many Argus types as he tries to reintegrate.

Let's hope he doesn't blow up any little Jewish kids - not that you'd care about that, I'm sure.

[On Guard for Thee]

I welcome any challenge towards my ideas. What I don't welcome is some self-appointed father figure deeming it necessary to scold me. Preschool indeed.

Ok. Prove he is a terrorist.

[Argus]

There is no actual proof that Khadr did what he has been charged with.

It's interesting that your standard of proof to convict a minority person exceeds that of criminal courts, but I guess if you're going to set yourself up as the defender of the downtrodden you can't let mere facts get in your way.

[Hydraboss]

On Friday, MP Roxy James went on and one about this guy and that the Harper government was going to stopped it from happening. She said he is guilty of murder and has pleaded guilty to that. Now unless she been in outer space, she dam well knows he HAD to plead guilty to get out of jail and back here in Canada, even though the Tories didn't want him back. IF he is guilty of murder, than everyone of those guys in that war is guilty too and besides that, there's no actual proof he did kill anyone. The lawyer has offered for him to live with the lawyer family, so he can go to school and get an education and I hope the people he comes in contact with, will give him a break and a chance to prove himself.

It is unlikely he'll meet with anything other than extreme contempt and potential danger if he steps outside Edmonton into any of the surrounding areas. His only hope is not to use his real name (since so many people have no idea what he actually looks like) and to stay to the "progressive" parts of the city. Regardless of what the courts may decide is or is not legal with regards to his release, there are far more people out here that won't care (you know, the people that you, Gosthacked and OGFT don't like).

edit->sp

Edited April 26, 2015 by Hydraboss

[Argus]

Ok. Prove he is a terrorist.

He's already been convicted. What you mean is "prove he's white" because unless that can be done you'll never admit he could have done anything wrong.

[On Guard for Thee]

So you've got nothing, then? You were just breaking wind over the internet - again.

Yeah I got something. A bigoted statement with absolutely no corroboration, and a huge assumption.But at least you are consistent.