Argus Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 All of this is true, but on the flip side, it's not at all uncommon to see legitimate and rational criticisms of Israeli policy dismissed with the antisemitic canard. There's a lot of overlap in the Venn diagram of "Jew haters" and "Israel critics." But there's also a fair bit of daylight as well. The problem is when they are depicted as one and the same, which makes actual dialogue nigh-impossible. As the saying goes, not everyone who criticizes Israel hates Jews, but everyone who hates Jews criticizes Israel. Intelligent analyses of the issues and responsibilities on both sides is one thing. If all people do is scream at Israel, despite the fact they don't seem to be doing anything any other state wouldn't be doing, that's kind of a clue. When the word 'zionist' is used a lot that's another clue. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Examples of that are found in this thread. Even to the point of calling someone an anti-semite for understanding a difference between Zionism, Isreali and Jew. You cannot win at all. Actually most of the time it's topped with 'well you support the terrorists then'. And round and round we go. And what IS the difference between an Israeli, a Jew and a Zionist to your mind? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 So you acknowledge yourself that, actually, no one is defending rocket attacks on innocent Israelis. I would disagree with this statement. Both Big guy and BChick have suggested the rocket fire is in fact, an act of retaliation due to Israel's blockade and policies, in effect, saying the Hamas rocket fire is Israel's fault. And frankly, your talk of people making an 'obligatory' remark that "oh, yes, and those Hamas fellows should tone it down too" is disingenuous. When you have people making hysterical accusations about Israel deliberately targeting children, and calling them "slimy zionists" and using words like genocide -- all without a single word ever being said about Hamas firing rockets to provoke and continue to provoke the current hostilities that's a pretty strong indication the individual concerned has an axe to grind unrelated to what is actually happening on the ground. I've heard no real criticism of Israel from the West over this, except some muttering behind the scenes. And it's because Hamas has obstinately refused to even discuss a peace agreement and refused to stop firing rockets. No government leader can validly demand Israel stop bombing Gaza under those circumstances. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Both sides are equally evil. No, they're actually not. Saying so is simply moral bankruptcy. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
cybercoma Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Oh and just so we're clear, I think everyone knows where I stand on First Nations. If they were firing rockets at downtown Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver, I would fully expect the Canadian military to retaliate exactly as the Israeli military has. Would it be a tragedy that innocent children and civilians would be killed in the counter attack? Absolutely. But I sure as hell wouldn't expect Ottawa to sit back and do nothing. Quote
jbg Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Oh and just so we're clear, I think everyone knows where I stand on First Nations. If they were firing rockets at downtown Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver, I would fully expect the Canadian military to retaliate exactly as the Israeli military has. Would it be a tragedy that innocent children and civilians would be killed in the counter attack? Absolutely. But I sure as hell wouldn't expect Ottawa to sit back and do nothing.I would expect Kerry to come in and demand a ceasefire, so that the hypothetical FN's could rearm. </sarcasm> Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 If everybody got behind Israel over hamas, this problem would go away and peace could take hold. No one here is supportive of the Hamas terrorist group. What some of us do find incredulous, is the bombing and killing of innocent Palestinian civilians, especially when you compare that to the very very low # of casualties in Israel. Perhaps Israel should take the high road and spare the lives of these families. Israel has their defense system (thanks to the U.S.) and Hamas knows it. The more Palestinians that get massacred, the more the violence and recruitment of terrorists will continue. Not all civilians support Hamas and for some reason, the majority of posters here think they do. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
Smallc Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Yes ignore the rockets...never mind that they're intended as murder weapons. Quote
cybercoma Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 That's ok, Smallc. If someone attempts to murder you and you successful defend yourself, it's like they never tried to murder you at all. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 That's ok, Smallc. If someone attempts to murder you and you successful defend yourself, it's like they never tried to murder you at all. Let's have a look at successfully defending yourself (with the iron dome): 800 Palestinians have lost their lives (most were families/innocent civilians). 36 Israels (34 were soldiers) lost their lives. Again, I think that Netanyahu can take a stand and rise above this bloodshed and do the right thing to stop innocent civilians from being killed. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
cybercoma Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Sure. And will Hamas extend them the same courtesy? Absolutely not. Quote
jbg Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Let's have a look at successfully defending yourself (with the iron dome): 800 Palestinians have lost their lives (most were families/innocent civilians). 36 Israels (34 were soldiers) lost their lives. Again, I think that Netanyahu can take a stand and rise above this bloodshed and do the right thing to stop innocent civilians from being killed. This never wold have happened had Hamas not found it necessary to stir the pot by massacring three yeshiva students. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Sure. And will Hamas extend them the same courtesy? Absolutely not. I am pretty sure that Hamas won't. Hence, the 'high road'. Netanyahu has the defence capabilities to do so. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
TimG Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 800 Palestinians have lost their lives (most were families/innocent civilians). 36 Israels (34 were soldiers) lost their lives.So you really believe that a government should just sit and do nothing when attacked even if it means a small number of Israelis will inevitably be killed? Do you really believe that a democratic government should get up and tell its citizens to prepare for death because stopping the attacks would be "too messy"? Pretty delusional thinking. Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 This never wold have happened had Hamas not found it necessary to stir the pot by massacring three yeshiva students. You are right. However, it did happen. It's very tragic that these teenagers were massacred. And it goes on and on and on. Netanyahu has the defence capabilities to show some leadership and end this. He can take the high road, much as most male aggressive leaders would not bow down to this kind of behaviour. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 So you really believe that a government should just sit and do nothing when attacked even if it means a small number of Israelis will inevitably be killed? Do you really believe that a democratic government should get up and tell its citizens to prepare for death because stopping the attacks would be "too messy"? Pretty delusional thinking. We need different approaches. I'm just suggesting something other than what is going on because it is obviously not working. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Do you really believe that a democratic government should get up and tell its citizens to prepare for death because stopping the attacks would be "too messy"? If you look at the numbers, there are no civilians being killed in Israel. They are all soldiers. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
TimG Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 We need different approaches. I'm just suggesting something other than what is going on because it is obviously not working.So now you are arguing that the Israeli government should tell its citizens to prepare to die because the government will do nothing while it dicks around looking for a "different approach"? Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 So now you are arguing that the Israeli government should tell its citizens to prepare to die because the government will do nothing while it dicks around looking for a "different approach"? Citizens aren't dieing in Israel. You are missing my point entirely. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
TimG Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) If you look at the numbers, there are no civilians being killed in Israel.YET. The iron dome is amazingly effective but if Israel did not respond eventually a rocket would hit a civilian target. How many Israelis would have to die BEFORE you would agree that a response is required? The message you think is necessary is also the same: prepare to die because the government will do nothing. Edited July 29, 2014 by TimG Quote
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 It's exactly because civilians aren't dying in Israel is why they can perhaps look for another solution to solve this. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 YET. The iron dome is amazingly effective but if Israel did not respond eventually a rocket would hit a civilian target. Sure, but they do have the Iron Dome. They can take the high road because of this and spare innocent civilians and their families. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
TimG Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 (edited) Sure, but they do have the Iron Dome. They can take the high road because of this and spare innocent civilians and their families.No - you are saying Israel should sacrifice Israelis because Hamas hides it rockets near civilians. That is no "high road" - that is moral cowardice. How would you feel if your government sacrificed your family because it was taking the "high road"? Edited July 29, 2014 by TimG Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 Nope...Canadians wouldn't tolerate such attacks either. Israel has a better defense and offense than Hamas. Sucks to be them I guess. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
WestCoastRunner Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 No - you are saying Israel should sacrifice Israelis because Hamas hides it rockets near civilians. That is no "high road" - that is moral cowardice. It is taking a creative approach. But Netanyahu doesn't have the guts to do it. Quote I love to see a young girl go out and grab the world by the lapels. Life's a bitch. You've got to go out and kick ass. - Maya Angelou
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