Ontario Teachers Preparing for Possible Strike

[socialist]

We all know how the neo-liberals in BC are trying to dismantle public education, but a battle could also be brewing in Ontario if the PC party and their neo-liberal policies try to gut public education. There seems to be a massive undertaking to hurt public education. I will keep this thread updated as more info pours in from Ontario. However, I believe Wynne will be victorious which will give public education 4-5 years of stability.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-teachers-will-receive-three-quarters-of-pay-in-case-of-strike/article19080086/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/lack-of-new-education-funding-in-ontario-budget-irks-teachers-union/article18385040/

Edited June 10, 2014 by socialist

[AngusThermopyle]

Well Mr. Socialist. As usual you obviously didn't take the time to thoroughly read the pieces you posted. If you had read the articles and the following comments you would have noticed an overwhelming disdain and disgust for the teachers union demands. Frankly I was surprised at the massive show of contempt for the unions position as displayed in the comments.

[Boges]

Why not Strike, the school year's almost done anyway. They don't teach in June anyway.

[AngusThermopyle]

Not a bad idea. Wont work though, striking now wouldn't have the impact of holding students hostage that is deemed optimal by the teachers union.

[Big Guy]

The past has shown what the public thinks when there is a dispute between the teachers and the government is irrelevant. The teachers go on strike. There will be some who support their decision and some who do not. Teachers stay out for 3 weeks. That is three weeks pay (about 5%) that is saved by the government. Meanwhile teachers have a strike chest that they have been paying into that keeps the money coming in.

The students fall farther behind, the borderline senior students quit and go to work. The wealthier students get tutorial help (sometime from the teachers who are on strike) to keep up or switch to a private school so they do not jeopardize their university admission.

The government feels that the strike is now starting to endanger the student and passes back to work legislation.

The teachers go back to work, the conflict goes to compulsory arbitration and the teachers get mostly what they wanted.

And then the cycle begins again.

After every strike, the teachers lose a little more sympathy from the public, more problems occur in schools, voluntary participation in coaching and supervising after school activities decreases, the students lost more opportunities.

It is the students, not the public or the teachers who lose during job actions.

[Mighty AC]

It is the students, not the public or the teachers who lose during job actions.

Very true. During strike action students always suffer the most. Though under a Hudak regime that suffering will be made permanent.

As someone that works in both the private and public sectors I see both sides. The image that the big unions have created for teachers isn't pretty. I have met a handful of hardcore union types in schools, but most teachers don't want to strike or cancel sports, clubs, trips, extra help sessions, enrichment activities, gardens, volunteer groups and any of the other activities we spend our own time and money on. We put in all of those volunteer hours, because we like to help make a difference and understand that education is about more than reading and regurgitating facts in a classroom. Typically, most of us aren't in 100% agreement with our union, school board or the government.

I usually find myself angry with both sides. It's hard to fight the urge to choke the life out of ignorant loudmouths that spout off about all teachers being lazy and that anyone could do the job, etc. However, I want to do the same to the union reps that try to convince the membership that we always deserve more. I would like to see some of the millions of dollars worth of dues the unions collect used to highlight all the good we do, a little more often.

[Pct2017]

We all know how the neo-liberals in BC are trying to dismantle public education, but a battle could also be brewing in Ontario if the PC party and their neo-liberal policies try to gut public education. There seems to be a massive undertaking to hurt public education. I will keep this thread updated as more info pours in from Ontario. However, I believe Wynne will be victorious which will give public education 4-5 years of stability.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-teachers-will-receive-three-quarters-of-pay-in-case-of-strike/article19080086/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/lack-of-new-education-funding-in-ontario-budget-irks-teachers-union/article18385040/

Looks like someone needs another stern lecture from West Coast Runner about using the term Neo-lib. Over to you WCR.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

No one is going on strike right now.

All the article actually mentions is that the secondary teacher's union found a way to improve strike pay.

Their contract doesn't even expire until the end of August.

You can expect a strike if the government keeps trying to legislate austerity instead of bargaining for it... that much is sure. BC has lost court battle after court battle and just keeps extending their unjust treatment of teachers through more court battles. Those are costing the government money too...

[TimG]

BC has lost court battle after court battle and just keeps extending their unjust treatment of teachers through more court battles.

It would help if you took the time to learn what the case was about and what the government got wrong. In this case, it was wrong to prohibit the teachers from asking that class in the contract. What the court did not say was the government was obliged to agree to include class size. The court also specifically stated that the government can impose financial constraints on bargaining (e.g. net zero). And when the government eventually legislates the teachers back to work the new contract will not include those provisions.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

It would help if you took the time to learn what the case was about and what the government got wrong. In this case, it was wrong to prohibit the teachers from asking that class in the contract. What the court did not say was the government was obliged to agree to include class size. The court also specifically stated that the government can impose financial constraints on bargaining (e.g. net zero). And when the government eventually legislates the teachers back to work the new contract will not include those provisions.

It would be helpful if you didn't talk down.

It's important to note that Ontario clearly botched last round of bargaining. The Ontario government over reached with bill 115, did not bargain in good faith before imposing the terms, and will be going to court this fall. It will be interesting to follow.

Edited June 11, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Mighty AC]

I believe the concessions to teacher compensation earned by the McGuinty government were necessary. One thing that surprises me though, is that people have the impression that Ontario has been spend happy on the education front. Despite repairing much of the damage done by the Harris government, combined elementary and secondary ed spending in Ontario is still pretty low. We rank 54th out of 64 jurisdictions in North America and 9th out of 13 in Canada. http://educationactiontoronto.com/issues-and-policies/ontario-at-the-bottom-of-the-pack-in-education-spending

The Liberals did hire some teachers and EAs to address serious education needs but has not been funding the maintenance of facilities and equipment. However, before we spend new money I would like to see some efficiency issues addressed. It seems that as schools do without adequate equipment and supplies our school board offices always seem to find the cash to update their boardrooms and office furniture. I believe that along with ending the public financing of Catholic education, we need to audit and crack down on school board spending. It would be nice if more of the money sent to school boards actually found its way into classrooms.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

I believe the concessions to teacher compensation earned by the McGuinty government were necessary. One thing that surprises me though, is that people have the impression that Ontario has been spend happy on the education front. Despite repairing much of the damage done by the Harris government, combined elementary and secondary ed spending in Ontario is still pretty low. We rank 54th out of 64 jurisdictions in North America and 9th out of 13 in Canada. http://educationactiontoronto.com/issues-and-policies/ontario-at-the-bottom-of-the-pack-in-education-spending

The Liberals did hire some teachers and EAs to address serious education needs but has not been funding the maintenance of facilities and equipment. However, before we spend new money I would like to see some efficiency issues addressed. It seems that as schools do without adequate equipment and supplies our school board offices always seem to find the cash to update their boardrooms and office furniture. I believe that along with ending the public financing of Catholic education, we need to audit and crack down on school board spending. It would be nice if more of the money sent to school boards actually found its way into classrooms.

End Catholic Segregation from Secular Ideas: I agree, we need to end Catholic segregation from secular ideas. Segregation wasn't morally right when it was based on race, it's not morally right based on religion. That's before considering the waste generated in two competing publicly funded systems. In my rural community, we send half filled buses Catholic schools and half filled buses to the public schools. Not only that but, because of newly opened Catholic schools agressively trying to grow their board numbers where no schools were needed, now my local public school board is closing perfectly fine public school buildings that are half empty only because parents like "new and shiny" structures regardless of whether they are segregated or public. Millions of dollars are wasted everytime the segregated board opens a new school in our current declining enrolment situation.

Compensation: I'm not sure the compensation change for teachers actually saves money. The 20 sick days sounds like a lot. Until you realize that that those days were actually for everything from paternity to bereavement to family medical emergency(children) to banked for short term disability, and if saved up they counted as a retirement gratuity which not only provided incentive to not use the banked days, it is something that is common for professionals who work for companies for an extended period of time. So the new plan looks better based on accounting purposes by not having unfunded liabilities but, now teachers have 11 sick days, + 5 days for things like bereavement, paternity, etc and 120 days of short term disability at 90-100% pay only requiring a doctors note. They went from 20 bankable days for emergencies and illness that can be banked, to 136 days renewable each year. Joe Public was coached to hate bankable days without understanding what they are actually used for, and now those same people who feel that bad apple teachers abused the 20 days/year can now leach on the system for 136 days off a year... Not only that but, the court case that arises from the way that McGuinty implemented the plan through legislation that restricted teacher access to the human rights code, labour law will cost money.

The grid freeze that only targeted teachers... and not any other public service employee is also questionable. Teachers already have one of the longest grids to climb. Nurses can reach their top pay after 8 years. Teachers take 13-15 years in the majority of school boards.

If we are looking at making compensation more efficient, I've said it a few times and I'll say it again. Teachers should be paid more in line with their qualifications and skill sets that they bring to the education. I know a few art teachers who were making minimum wage in art shops before they became a teacher and openly admit they do if they lost their teaching job to make money. Why are we paying dime a dozen qualifications the same as in demand qualifications? Art, Drama, Phys Ed, History, Dance? I'm sorry but people with those skill sets aren't as valuable as Engineering, Business, Computers, Science, Technology and Math qualifications. That Phys Ed qualified teacher would likely be making 30-50k as a fitness instructor, similarly for Art, Drama, Dance, History, Music, and all of the other dime a dozen teacher subjects.

Edited June 11, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist

[overthere]

We rank 54th out of 64 jurisdictions in North America and 9th out of 13 in Canada.

I wonder how that happened, since this chart shows Ontario teachers with the second highest overall compensation in Canada.http://education.alberta.ca/department/budget/studentfirst.aspx

It would be nice if more of the money sent to school boards actually found its way into classrooms.

Alberta legislated this some time ago, in the 90s as I recall. About 98% of the Education budget goes to school authoities(school boards mostly) and I think around 95% of that must go to schools for their operations and of course the major chunk of that is in teachers salaries. It caused an uproar at the time, since it meant that school boards that had been crammed with workshy bureaucrats and reams of deputy vice superintendents had to change their ways ASAP.

[Argus]

You can expect a strike if the government keeps trying to legislate austerity instead of bargaining for it... that much is sure. BC has lost court battle after court battle and just keeps extending their unjust treatment of teachers through more court battles. Those are costing the government money too...

Bargaining for austerity? You think unions are going to simply accept cutbacks in ANY area without getting more in another? Ultimately, the unions will not accept any sort of austerity willingly. Why would they? I think the government should legislate them back to work the day they go on strike, and the impose a settlement which has reduced salaries and benefits for newer teachers. We simply can't afford their huge pay cheques. And frankly, they're not worth that much money. Everyone I knew who became a teacher did it because it was a fallback position. They had no calling. They just didn't know what else they wanted to do, and this would pay well and leave their summers free. It's a place for people who went to university because they didn't know what else to do, took a general, liberal arts course, and felt no calling or interest in anything while in university either.

No, not anyone can do it. But as evidenced from these people, the qualifications aren't exactly high. And we have far, far too many teachers being graduated every year who wind up working at Starbucks.

[Argus]

I believe the concessions to teacher compensation earned by the McGuinty government were necessary. One thing that surprises me though, is that people have the impression that Ontario has been spend happy on the education front. Despite repairing much of the damage done by the Harris government, combined elementary and secondary ed spending in Ontario is still pretty low. We rank 54th out of 64 jurisdictions in North America and 9th out of 13 in Canada. http://educationactiontoronto.com/issues-and-policies/ontario-at-the-bottom-of-the-pack-in-education-spending

Hmm, an ontario teacher site which gives no indication as to where that number comes from, or what other jurisdictions are ahead of us. Not terribly useful.

According to stats canada, education spending per pupil is approximately the same across the country, barring the added expenses in the northern territories. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/2010083/c-g/c-g008-eng.htm

On a world scale, its hard to compare spending. For example, if you use % of GDP you find that Swaziland and Botswana spend twice what Canada does. And Canada spends way more than Japan, so I don't think that one is useful. Well, unless you want to play games with figures, of course.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Argus

[jacee]

End Catholic Segregation from Secular Ideas: I agree, we need to end Catholic segregation from secular ideas. Segregation wasn't morally right when it was based on race, it's not morally right based on religion.

That's a disingenuous argument that destroys the credibility of your position. That's unfortunate as there are good reasons to support one secular public education system but ending "segregation" isn't one of them.

"Segregation" is a loaded term implying enforced separation, while Catholic education is a choice.

That's before considering the waste generated in two competing publicly funded systems. In my rural community, we send half filled buses Catholic schools and half filled buses to the public schools. Not only that but, because of newly opened Catholic schools agressively trying to grow their board numbers where no schools were needed, now my local public school board is closing perfectly fine public school buildings that are half empty only because parents like "new and shiny" structures regardless of whether they are segregated or public. Millions of dollars are wasted everytime the segregated board opens a new school in our current declining enrolment situation.

That's better, but not a strong argument yet.

[Mighty AC]

I think fairness, cost and the separation of church and state are strong arguments for ending the public funding of one religious school system.

[Big Guy]

Teachers are getting far more than they are worth. Politicians are getting far more than they should. In fact law enforcement, lawyers, doctors, firemen, CEO's, priests, rabbis, butchers, bakers and candlestick makes are all over paid.

Actually, except for you and me, everybody is getting far too much for what they do.

And I'm not so sure about you!!

[Mighty AC]

So the new plan looks better based on accounting purposes by not having unfunded liabilities but, now teachers have 11 sick days, + 5 days for things like bereavement, paternity, etc and 120 days of short term disability at 90-100% pay only requiring a doctors note. They went from 20 bankable days for emergencies and illness that can be banked, to 136 days renewable each year. Joe Public was coached to hate bankable days without understanding what they are actually used for, and now those same people who feel that bad apple teachers abused the 20 days/year can now leach on the system for 136 days off a year...

Even when sick days were bankable teachers still had access to short term disability when their banked days ran out. The difference being that in the past teachers could spend more time off at 100% pay than they can now.

The grid freeze that only targeted teachers... and not any other public service employee is also questionable. Teachers already have one of the longest grids to climb. Nurses can reach their top pay after 8 years. Teachers take 13-15 years in the majority of school boards.

Targeting just teacher salaries is questionable, more employees should have had their wages frozen. Most school boards I've encountered max out on the experience axis in 10 years.

If we are looking at making compensation more efficient, I've said it a few times and I'll say it again. Teachers should be paid more in line with their qualifications and skill sets that they bring to the education. I know a few art teachers who were making minimum wage in art shops before they became a teacher and openly admit they do if they lost their teaching job to make money. Why are we paying dime a dozen qualifications the same as in demand qualifications? Art, Drama, Phys Ed, History, Dance?

In my area people with computer science and math expertise are a dime a dozen. I'm not comfortable with the idea of weighting the worth of teachers. In your view, should a teacher with Math, Science and Phys-Ed qualifications who is covering all PE courses be paid less than than if (s)he was also covering a math or science class? Teachers don't pick the courses they teach, Principals, VPs and Department heads make those decisions.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

That's a disingenuous argument that destroys the credibility of your position. That's unfortunate as there are good reasons to support one secular public education system but ending "segregation" isn't one of them.

"Segregation" is a loaded term implying enforced separation, while Catholic education is a choice.

I've only ever had Catholics take issue with segregation as a term because the truth offends them. To be honest, it doesn't bother me because it's just emotions that occur when a faith is challenged.

One of my favourites when talking about faith discrimination:

C - "As a Catholic Teacher I offer faith based instruction to any faith in the context of the faith of that child. For example, I have counselled hindi and muslim students in their religion."

MCC - "Then logically, why can't a Muslim individual offer faith based guidance to Catholics equally well as you do for them?"

C - "That's offensive! You must really hate Catholics"

MCC - "Nope. Just talking about equity and equitable treatment of people without discrimination."

For the record:

1.to separate or set apart from others or from the main body or group; isolate: to segregate exceptional children; to segregate hardened criminals.

2.to require, often with force, the separation of (a specific racial, religious, or other group) from the general body of society.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/segregate

The segregated school board separates all other religions from Catholic elementary and does not hire non-Catholic staff at any level. It is forcible segregation of themselves from non-Catholics. Non-Catholic students DO NOT have a choice to attend Catholic elementary, they are FORCED into the public system. One of our friends tried because the school was closer and newer, you couldn't attend without a family connection that was Catholic. "This interview is over" was what happened. That's segregation but, the group that's doing the segregating doesn't like admitting it...

It is state sponsored discrimination and allows Catholics preferential segregation of themselves from all other faiths.

Edited June 12, 2014 by MiddleClassCentrist

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Even when sick days were bankable teachers still had access to short term disability when their banked days ran out. The difference being that in the past teachers could spend more time off at 100% pay than they can now.

Targeting just teacher salaries is questionable, more employees should have had their wages frozen. Most school boards I've encountered max out on the experience axis in 10 years.

In my area people with computer science and math expertise are a dime a dozen. I'm not comfortable with the idea of weighting the worth of teachers. In your view, should a teacher with Math, Science and Phys-Ed qualifications who is covering all PE courses be paid less than than if (s)he was also covering a math or science class? Teachers don't pick the courses they teach, Principals, VPs and Department heads make those decisions.

Where did you get your info on Short Term Disability. They had Long Term Disability plan that they paid for. But if they didn't have banked days and were injured. They were SOL until their LTD kicked in. SOURCE: From family of teachers, wife is a teacher

Are you in the KW area of Ontario? Heheh.

Those computer science and math people still earn, on average, way more than arts. Also worth note: Teachers can refuse assignments they aren't qualified for. A CS/Math teacher could refuse PE, Art, History, etc if it wasn't on their teaching qualification. An arts teacher earning 90k/year telling their students all of the great possibilities they could be is disingenuous when the reality is minimum wage art shop employee.

[Argus]

I think fairness, cost and the separation of church and state are strong arguments for ending the public funding of one religious school system.

The separation of church and state don't enter into it. And I rather doubt there'd be that much cost savings.

How about we stop full day kindergarten, which has not shown to be of any real value, and which would save even more?

http://www.macleans.ca/general/why-full-day-kindergarten-is-failing-our-children/

http://www.macleans.ca/general/why-full-day-kindergarten-is-failing-our-children/

[Argus]

I've only ever had Catholics take issue with segregation as a term because the truth offends them. To be honest, it doesn't bother me because it's just emotions that occur when a faith is challenged.

Okay, so if separate Catholic education, which is a byproduct of our country's founding, is discriminatory and should be logically done away with, then I take it you are also okay with constitutional guarantees for Francophones, which are also a product of our country's founding, being done away with too.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Argus

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Okay, so if separate Catholic education, which is a byproduct of our country's founding, is discriminatory and should be logically done away with, then I take it you are also okay with constitutional guarantees for Francophones, which are also a product of our country's founding, being done away with too.

If you'd like to explain how language and religion are parallel in implementation and discrimination I'd be glad to hear it. French is a language that can be learned like any other language, and does not require you to unlearn and stop using previous languages. One could practice French to develop the required skills to teach Francophones, if they so chose to.

[jacee]

It is forcible segregation ...

No.

It's a choice.

.