All They Need is a Handgun.

[On Guard for Thee]

You couldn't have missed the point any further if you tried.

Oh you can bet he tried, and quite successfully.

[cybercoma]

None whatsoever....I can cherry pick NRA media content as well, and you will make no attempt to understand the discussion or points of debate.

What I posted has nothing to do with gun control. What part of "the problem goes well beyond gun control" was too difficult for you to understand? Christ. It's like you don't read anything and just post the same tired talking points over and over again.

[bush_cheney2004]

What I posted has nothing to do with gun control. What part of "the problem goes well beyond gun control" was too difficult for you to understand? Christ. It's like you don't read anything and just post the same tired talking points over and over again.

If it had nothing to do with this topic, then it was a derail, no? Women at risk in Canada ?? Nerd psycho-babble from California ?? Please do not derail threads. Start a new topic if you wish to discuss such things.

Edited May 29, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

What I think this comes down to (and I may but can't promise a thread on this issue) is a need for people generally to keep better track of their neighbors and acquaintances. Someone, particularly the administration, faculty or other students at the "college" he was attending should have noticed this guy's spiraling decline. Likewise James Holmes, Jared Lochner and other recent mass killers. The Newtown slayer may have been genuinely inaccessible but most are not.

Here's the thread that I hinted I would start (link). I really think this is an anonymity and mental health problem, not a weapons problem.

Edited May 29, 2014 by jbg

[gunrutz]

gun fetishists

Define please.

[cybercoma]

If it had nothing to do with this topic, then it was a derail, no? Women at risk in Canada ?? Nerd psycho-babble from California ?? Please do not derail threads. Start a new topic if you wish to discuss such things.

This is the link from the OP. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-video-confession_n_5385175.html?cps=gravity

That's what I'm talking about.

And I'm the one derailing threads? Get a clue.

[Spiderfish]

gun fetishists

Define please.

Yeah, that one caught my eye as well.

[Spiderfish]

Here's the other side of your take: If most convenience store owners have no gun under the counter, the robber may come in with a knife or a baseball bat or a finger in his jacket to rob the place because that's all that would be needed. If most convenience store owners are known to have guns under the counter then the robber will need to step his game up and come in with a gun himself.

Robberies with knives and bats will result in less death & injury than if both parties are armed with guns.

Do you think a robber is really going to complete a detailed analysis of the level of offensive power that will be required before they initiate their attack against a store owner? Doubtful. He is going to bring a weapon that most quickly and efficiently achieves submission of the victim that is available.

[Spiderfish]

The issue really seems to be mental health. 3 people died from a knife. 3 people died from a gun. For some reason, the gun issue is the only issue some people decide to focus on.

I tried bringing that up already, it was suggested that I pick another massacre then. I guess this one doesn't count.

Apperently mass killings are typically carried out by sane, balanced, and sound people.

[On Guard for Thee]

I tried bringing that up already, it was suggested that I pick another massacre then. I guess this one doesn't count.

Apperently mass killings are typically carried out by sane, balanced, and sound people.

The guy in SoCal was none of the above, but he had pile of legally purchased weapons. If you allow nutbars to be armed, nutbars will kill people. It's been proven how many times now in the US?

[Spiderfish]

The guy in SoCal was none of the above, but he had pile of legally purchased weapons. If you allow nutbars to be armed, nutbars will kill people.

True....armed with guns, armed with knives, armed with BMW's. Instead of banning everything, it may be more effective to better try and identify and treat people with the capability and propensity of such destruction.

[On Guard for Thee]

True....armed with guns, armed with knives, armed with BMW's. Instead of banning everything, it may be more effective to better try and identify and treat people with the capability and propensity of such destruction.

That only makes sense to me. I think a bit of "throttling back" on ease of gun availability, at least for people who have already known and diagnosed mental problems, might just save a lot of lives. And if that sound slightly sarcastic, well then so be it.

[Black Dog]

What I posted has nothing to do with gun control. What part of "the problem goes well beyond gun control" was too difficult for you to understand? Christ. It's like you don't read anything and just post the same tired talking points over and over again.

Who him?

...yet more Canadians emigrate to the US based on that precious per-capita metric so loved "up north". Yay...no more wait times!

Good point...often overlooked in these border war contests. About 24,000 Canadians emigrate to the USA each year, but 240,000 Americans do not emigrate to Canada.

Yes...if you no likee...stay the hell out. Many more Canadians will emigrate to the USA this year....same as last year.

Yet 25,000 Canadians emigrate to the USA yearly, with far fewer Americans (with 10X the population) returning the favor. I guess polls about "happiness" only go so far, by some people's reckoning.

Nope....I don't even know (or care) what a Canadian "green card" even looks like. Each year, 25,000 Canadians emigrate to the USA, while only 2,500 Americans go to Canada. But the US has 10x the population....think about the reasons for such a glaring disparity.

That's right...I wonder why? More Canadians emigrate to the USA than the other way around, and it has 1/9th the population. Think about that for a minute.

We've already been over this...bottom line is that more Canadians emigrate to the US than Americans emigrate to Canada. And the US has 10 times the population. Think about that.

They do it for the same reasons as other nationals....opportunity....jobs...family...education...etc.

Don't get angry at me just because the rest of the world has chosen to emigrate to the U.S. far more than Canada. More Canadians also emigrate to the U.S. as a percentage of population than Americans emigrating to Canada, so either way, you have some work to do. Some say it's the weather

[Black Dog]

I tried bringing that up already, it was suggested that I pick another massacre then. I guess this one doesn't count.

I guess you just missed the point.

Apperently mass killings are typically carried out by sane, balanced, and sound people.

Mass killings are carried out by crazy people because only crazy people would commit mass killings is a tautology.

True....armed with guns, armed with knives, armed with BMW's. Instead of banning everything, it may be more effective to better try and identify and treat people with the capability and propensity of such destruction.

Yes if only this fellow had been seeing mental health professionals from an early age instead of somehow slipping through the cracks of the system.

[jbg]

Nope....I don't even know (or care) what a Canadian "green card" even looks like.

Who him?

I guess he's not familiar with the term "landed immigrant."

Each year, 25,000 Canadians emigrate to the USA, while only 2,500 Americans go to Canada. But the US has 10x the population....think about the reasons for such a glaring disparity.

Who him?

There is a point being made unfortunately. Most Canadian expats that I know are in heavily regulated professions such as medicine, especially, and law. Their reasons for coming are lack of opportunity and/or low earnings under regulation. The good news for Canada is that Obama is hell-bent on turning the U.S. into a mediocre rather than excellent country. Edited May 30, 2014 by jbg

[Black Dog]

Here's the thread that I hinted I would start (link). I really think this is an anonymity and mental health problem, not a weapons problem.

If he had written a manifesto about Jews running the world and gone out and murdered a bunch of Jewish people, would mental illness be the first thing that came to mind for you?

[Black Dog]

I guess he's not familiar with the term "landed immigrant."

There is a point being made unfortunately. Most Canadian expats that I know are in heavily regulated professions such as medicine, especially, and law. Their reasons for coming are lack of opportunity and/or low earnings under regulation. The good news for Canada is that Obama is hell-bent on turning the U.S. into a mediocre rather than excellent country.

The point was certain posters are one-trick ponies.

[bush_cheney2004]

Despite all the hype over gun violence, Canadians and many other nationals still keep emigrating to the U.S.

As for the usual personal attacks, even his insults are imported from...America.

Edited May 30, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[GostHacked]

This is the link from the OP. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-video-confession_n_5385175.html?cps=gravity

That's what I'm talking about.

And I'm the one derailing threads? Get a clue.

The self proclaimed senior mocker/troller only does ONE thing on this board. Stop f'n responding to him.

[bush_cheney2004]

After a torrid sales pace in 2013, firearms and ammo sales have remained quite healthy in the U.S. It is believed that threatened gun control measures have spurred sales of guns, silencers, ammo, and related gear to record levels.

"We have seen dramatic, unprecedented ... growth in the firearms and ammunition industry as the direct result of consumer demand for our products in the last five years,'' the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry's trade association, said on its website. "Not surprisingly, growth has placed added demand on the (ATF's) Office of Enforcement Programs and Services.

"Today, the office simply does not have the funding or personnel it needs to serve the industry and, by extension, our customers.''

The foundation estimated that the ATF's office needed $10 million in additional funding to "provide the level of service our industry needs to remain in compliance with federal law.''

According to ATF records, a total of 512,790 machine guns were registered across the country in 2014, more than 571,000 silencers, 2.2 million so-called destructive devices (which include grenades and other explosives), 137,201 short-barreled rifles and 131,951 short-barreled shotguns.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/24/atf-guns-registration/8115273/

When I started buying firearms in the early 80's, it was common practice to find someone with a federal firearms license (FFL) to procure guns and rifles. "Shotgun News" was a favorite publication to connect sellers to buyers. Thousands of FFL holders would help to shield consumer purchases from government oversight by "losing" the paperwork after the sale.

In the U.S., so called "gun nuts" trump "gun grabbers".

Edited May 30, 2014 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

If he had written a manifesto about Jews running the world and gone out and murdered a bunch of Jewish people, would mental illness be the first thing that came to mind for you?

I am quite sure that Hitler was mentally ill.

And yes. We had a mass murder by one Cowan, I think first name Ed, in 1977 or 1978 in my area, at Neptune Moving Company. Problems with Jews was the ostensible cause, even though I am pretty sure it was mental illness. As I was writing I cheated and used google. It was actually Frederick Cowan (link) excerpt below (the excerpt is about 10% of the length of the story). My memory did serve me well.

Classification: Spree killer

Characteristics: Revenge - Suspended worker who collected Nazi paraphernalia

Number of victims: 6

Date of murders: February 14, 1977

Date of birth: June 1, 1943

Victims profile: Joseph Hicks, 60; Frederick Holmes, 55; James Green, 45; and Pariyarathu Varghese, 32 (ex co-workers); and Allen McLeod, 29 (police officer)

Method of murder: Shooting

Location: New Rochelle, New York, USA

Status: Surrounded by 300 officers, committed suicide by shooting himself

*************

Nazi-lover and amateur weightlifter Freddie Cowan shocked the New Rochelle community on Saint Valentine's Day, 1977, when he shot 10 people at the Neptune Worldwide Moving Company. Five died on the spot, a sixth person died weeks later.

From all accounts, people thought that Freddie was a regular guy with a couple of chips on his broad shoulders.

A hardworking ex-GI, Freddie lived with his parents and fantasized about being "like Hitler." He kept a collection of Nazi weapons and other memorabilia and enjoyed wearing his German tanker helmet and pretending he was in the SS. In one of his Nazi books found by authorities in his attic bedroom he had written "There is nothing lower than black and Jewish people unless it's the police who protect them."

Once, when he was drunk, he kicked a puppie to death because it was black. On another occasion he smashed a TV in a bar after finding out the woman he was talking to was Jewish. He also threatened a neighbor with his rifle for dating a black man. Freddie claimed to have no interest in women and told an acquaintance, "If you want to be a man, buy a gun." Surprisingly, people were stunned when this bigoted maniac went on a killing spree.

Cowan was supposed to return on February 11 but didn’t show up. As he lay hidden beneath an office desk, Bing could hear Cowan stalking through the hallways, indiscriminately firing the rifle into the walls and offices. “If I hadn’t walked out of my office, he would have gotten me. I heard the shots and I knew he was after me, he made that clear” he later said to reporters from the Times (Thomas, p. 28 2/16). But Bing had another reason to worry: he was Jewish. To Cowan, that was enough.

Inside the killer’s pocket, police found a membership card for the National State’s Rights Party in the name of Mr. Frederick W. Cowan. On the reverse side of the card, it listed several membership principles. They included “A free white America, Racial Separation, Expulsion of All Jews and Confiscation of ill-gotten Jewish Wealth.” And on the bottom of this same card, the party’s slogan read “Honor, Pride, Fight-Save the White.”

Picking Up the Pieces

New Rochelle Police eventually executed a search warrant at Cowan’s home on Woodbury Street. Found during that search was a terrifying array of Nazi mementos that astonished the police and gave an indication of just how disturbed Cowan had become. When Det. Harris first entered the room, he was shocked. “I didn’t know Fred, but his family were very nice people. I didn’t know how a person could go that way, have such negative feelings about Jewish people and blacks,” he said during an interview.

Inside the attic apartment police found eleven cans of gunpowder, shotgun shells, primers, three antique muskets, one rifle, shell casings and equipment to make bullets, thousands of rounds of ammunition, one machete, at least 20 knives, eight Nazi bayonets, military helmets from World War II, five posters of Adolf Hitler, dozens of Nazi books, literature and many SS items, flags and belt buckles.

Over the next few days, newspapers published a wide assortment of stories about the incident at Neptune. “Sniper Hated Cops, Note Says” wrote the New York Daily News. The New Rochelle Standard Star was more direct: “Gunman Idolizes Hitler and the Nazis.” The New York Times focused in on the racial aspects of the incident “Police Link Slayer of Five To a Militant Racist Party.”

Follow-up police investigation suggested that Cowan was a member of the National Sates Rights Party, a militant racist organization that encouraged

****************************

The white supremist groups like Ayran Nation, National States Rights Party and the Neo-Nazi movement were not widely publicized in 1977, though such organizations were already known to the police. After Neptune, law enforcement began to pay special attention to these militant groups and their frightening potential for violence.

In the police search of Cowan’s attic apartment on February 14, a thick metal belt buckle was found among his belongings. Inscribed boldly on the front of that buckle were these prophetic words: “I will give up my gun when they pry my cold dead fingers from around it!”

(excerpts ended)

Edited June 1, 2014 by jbg

[Black Dog]

I am quite sure that Hitler was mentally ill.

And yes. We had a mass murder by one Cowan, I think first name Ed, in 1977 or 1978 in my area, at Neptune Moving Company. Problems with Jews was the ostensible cause, even though I am pretty sure it was mental illness. As I was writing I cheated and used google. It was actually Frederick Cowan (link) excerpt below (the excerpt is about 10% of the length of the story). My memory did serve me well.

What about the 9-11 hijackers? What about the people who took part in the atrocities during the Balkans war? Jeffery Dahmer? The men behind My Lai?

IMO it's very dangerous to assume without any evidence that people who do horrible things do so because they are mentally ill. For one, it adds to the already extreme stigmatization faced by mentally ill people, the vast vast majority of whom are not violent or dangerous. For another, it deflects from the troubling reality that everyone has evil in them; there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" despite what the NRA might say.

[cybercoma]

it adds to the already extreme stigmatization faced by mentally ill people, the vast vast majority of whom are not violent or dangerous. For another, it deflects from the troubling reality that everyone has evil in them; there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" despite what the NRA might say.

This can't be repeated enough.

[jbg]

IMO it's very dangerous to assume without any evidence that people who do horrible things do so because they are mentally ill. For one, it adds to the already extreme stigmatization faced by mentally ill people, the vast vast majority of whom are not violent or dangerous. For another, it deflects from the troubling reality that everyone has evil in them; there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" despite what the NRA might say.

This can't be repeated enough.

I think we wind up with a better world and a better society if people take care of each other and try to help others with their psychological problems. There are isolated people who need friends. It is not just about violence. More on my thoughts here (link). Edited June 2, 2014 by jbg

[Black Dog]

I think we wind up with a better world and a better society if people take care of each other and try to help others with their psychological problems. There are isolated people who need friends. It is not just about violence. More on my thoughts here (link).

That's great, but it also helps to have a society where weapons of mass murder are not readily available, let alone glorified.