Pro Life? Then Don't Run Under Liberal Banner

cybercoma · May 23, 2014

I don't really think its that difficult to understand. Despite all the hysterics from certain people on the site, I doubt in all cases it comes down to a case of "men wanting to control women".

Some individuals truly believe that what counts as a "human being" exists prior to birth; as such, an abortion is the equivalent of murder. Its not a belief I subscribe to, but I understand it, even if I don't agree.

On this forum there's a thread about a man who killed his 13 year old daughter and only got 2 months in jail. Does it upset you? If so, why? After all, you weren't one of the individuals personally involved. Yet the case has got people complaining about the relatively short sentence. People don't like it when they see a crime go unpunished.

People who go off the deep end, complaining that its "all about men controlling women" are basically hijacking the dialog and make it impossible to have a reasonable discussion about the issue. (Admittedly, the hysterics from the anti-abortionists are probably worse.)

the problem is you can't justify a human being having the right to use someone else's body against their will under any circumstances even outside of pregnancy.

And the two month sentence doesn't bother me because it was manslaughter not murder. Her death was accidental and he poses absolutely zero threat to society. His punishment is that he has to live with the accidental death of his own daughter by his hand.

Edited May 23, 2014 by cybercoma

WestCoastRunner · May 23, 2014

When you try to intertwine a man killing his 13 year old daughter with abortion, that is where hysterics begin.

cybercoma · May 23, 2014

When you try to intertwine a man killing his 13 year old daughter with abortion, that is where hysterics begin.

Exactly. And if we're going to invoke infanticide as an argument, why not mention that abortion restrictions increase the infanticide rate. Anti-choice folks don't want to mention that.

WestCoastRunner · May 23, 2014

I sometimes forget which topic I am discussing because this topic repeatedly comes up. Can we not get beyond this and allow women their appropriate rights?

WestCoastRunner · May 23, 2014

It is such a silly argument. Women are in control of their bodies! Let's leave it at that!!!!

Keepitsimple · May 23, 2014

It is such a silly argument. Women are in control of their bodies! Let's leave it at that!!!!

Yep, it is......and you can blame young Mr. Trudeau for all the hubbub. It took years to have it fade to a non-issue - especially among the majority of Canadians who are not completely comfortable with Abortion on Demand - who want to have something in place, however minor that may be. This thread was never meant to be about abortion per se, it was about Trudeau's judgement and commitment to party open-ness. It revealed a style that even his MPs seem to be uncomfortable with - and only time will tell if his judgement is politically sound.

maldon_road · May 23, 2014

This thread was never meant to be about abortion per se, it was about Trudeau's judgement and commitment to party open-ness. It revealed a style that even his MPs seem to be uncomfortable with - and only time will tell if his judgement is politically sound.

It doesn't matter who wins the next election - there will be no change in status of abortion at the federal level.

Mr Trudeau therefore accomplished two things. Call into question once again his fitness as party leader and apparently end the Liberal Party's claim to be a Big Tent. You get the impression that whenever Justin opens his mouth there are cheers from the Conservative and NDP camps.

Memo to Mr Trudeau: in the recent Quebec election the PQ got thumped because they insisted on talking about sovereignty and Islamic head scarves instead of the issues the public wanted to hear about: jobs, healthcare, education. Don't you make the same mistake.

cybercoma · May 23, 2014

If you pay attention to what Trudeau is doing, he's going to carve out a space between the Conservatives and the NDP. The problem is that the Conservatives have moved to the left and the NDP has moved to the right. Both sides are squeezing the Liberals. One of the biggest criticisms Ignatieff got was that the Liberals were no different than the NDP last election, in terms of policies.

While Trudeau offers nostalgia for a time when his father was in office, he needs to do more than that to win the election. This issue about abortion signals to me the beginning of a very important strategy that the Liberals need to adhere to to become successful. Trudeau is going to clearly define the Liberal brand. It's necessary. They can't be the pragmatic 'be everything to everyone' party anymore. They need a clear vision and a clear place between the NDP and Conservatives. So how does he do it? He clearly defines the party as socially AND economically liberal. I'm referring to European sense of economic liberty. Saying that he expects future candidates for the Liberal party to vote for women's right to choose is one step in establishing the socially Liberal definition of the party. Pay close attention because his next step will be to define a fiscally conservative position for the party. If he can accomplish this, he'll not only redefine the Liberal brand but do so in a way that pits it against the fiscal policies of the NDP and against the social stance of the Conservatives. The challenge for Trudeau is to make it believable that the Liberals can be the best of both the NDP and Conservatives without being a contradiction to itself.

Edited May 23, 2014 by cybercoma

monty16 · May 23, 2014

The conservative whining has started in earnest so we can expect that some of the Tory politicians will walk right into JT's trap. He doesn't need to say another word about it. As with our cybercoma, they are obsessed with their anti-abortion stand and can't leave it alone. Trouble is, it takes a 'religious right' like the US has to make it work politically and in Canada the religious right is nearly non-existent.

jacee · May 23, 2014

That was very good!

Thanks !

Yes I've educated a few young men to their responsibilities with the "waa waa" dick ring idea. One of them told me he can't get it out of his head now. And that's a good thing!

Contraception has brought a substantial improvement to the lives of women. Unfortunately many men treat it as the woman's responsibility and fail to take any responsibility themselves because "She can just get an abortion".

So I hope a few young men reading here will be reminded every time they get an erection that a crying poopy baby and 18 years of child support spurts out the end of their dick.

.

Big Guy · May 23, 2014

So I hope a few young men reading here will be reminded every time they get an erection that a crying poopy baby and 18 years of child support spurts out the end of their .....

.

Yes - but they all grow up and after the age of 18 become productive citizens and look after their parents in their old age. Don't they?

monty16 · May 23, 2014

Thanks !

Yes I've educated a few young men to their responsibilities with the "waa waa" dick ring idea. One of them told me he can't get it out of his head now. And that's a good thing!

Contraception has brought a substantial improvement to the lives of women. Unfortunately many men treat it as the woman's responsibility and fail to take any responsibility themselves because "She can just get an abortion".

So I hope a few young men reading here will be reminded every time they get an erection that a crying poopy baby and 18 years of child support spurts out the end of their dick.

.

Reads like a porn novel but I'm sure that's not your intent.

jacee · May 23, 2014

Yes - but they all grow up and after the age of 18 become productive citizens and look after their parents in their old age. Don't they?

Hold onto your dreams!

.

jacee · May 23, 2014

Reads like a porn novel but I'm sure that's not your intent.

Crying poopy baby is porn?

What am I missing here?

Never mind.

monty16 · May 23, 2014

Crying poopy baby is porn?

What am I missing here?

Never mind.

You're missing most of what you wrote so be careful you don't take it to the next level or I'll be reporting it for what it really is. I don't think there's any need for that on this forum.

-TSS- · May 23, 2014

In countries where abortion is banned or very restricted everything else in those countries tends to be primitive and backward as well.

WestCoastRunner · May 24, 2014

Jaycee makes a joke about men fathering babies and my, look at the reaction! Porn, responsibility.....

Argus · May 25, 2014

It's probable smart for any politician in Canada to just be quiet about being a Christian until challenged on it. Then he's wise to pretend to be a Chritian. To me it's pretty obvious that Justin Trudeau is far too intelligent to truly believe in sky fairies and so he needs to fake it. Christians are easily convinced and the rest of us surely won't hold it against him.

What you're saying is that you believe Justin Trudeau is lying through his teeth about his Catholicism, making a sham of his visits to churches. Perhaps your standards of morality are so low that you accept blatant dishonesty without issue but many people, religious or not, would take issue with that level of phonyness.

Argus · May 25, 2014

I don't want to short change you, so let me be clear that I understand your argument and I'm not claiming that you're wrong.

Don't you think, then, that Justin Trudeau ought to know that instead of claiming he's defending a Charter right?

Argus · May 25, 2014

In America, a woman needs to see a doctor and then wait three days before proceeding with her abortion. If she doesn't then she could be found guilty of murder and be executed for that crime.

American laws are a patchwork because they're mostly state laws. That you don't understand isn't surprising since everything you have to say about the US seems to be based on blind ideological extremism.

Argus · May 25, 2014

See this is what we don't really know......just b/c John Mackay or Jim Karygiannis feel left out in the cold doesn't make it so. He may have built a significant (not total) consensus in the caucus but felt to go public quickly so to be "open" before nominations went too far. I think he could've played the media game better but the ideal behind it was appropriate.

You don't think it might have been a good idea to at least inform his caucus before going to the press? Or maybe that that is an indication of how much respect he has for them?

Argus · May 25, 2014

I think the need for abortion should be reduced. Men should have to wear a dick ring that cries like a baby everytime they get an erection, to remind them that their equipment should be wrapped up unless they want to pay child support for 18+ years.

Men shouldn't be allowed to vote on abortion. It's none of their business.

If men weren't required by law to support the baby a woman decides to have, for the next 18 years you might have a point.

Argus · May 25, 2014

So I guess....the anti-abortion folks just want to restrict a womans choice, how misogynistic of you !

Are you saying the Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, Danish, Belgian, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Spanish, British, Australian, Austrian, Icelandic etc governments are all misogynistic?

Argus · May 25, 2014

Some people's views on abortion are certainly more relevant than those of some other people. When old men rant against abortion it is difficult to resist the temptation to ask why does the issue bother them so much as it most certainly doesn't personally concern them.

Are you concerned about people starving in Africa? About brutalities in Syria? About Russian agressiveness in Europe? About slavery, pollution, corruption and other issues beyond the borders of your country? None of that personally concerns you.

Argus · May 25, 2014

They can't be the pragmatic 'be everything to everyone' party anymore.

The Liberals didn't fail because they were everything to everone. They failed because they were nothing to anyone. Their policies shifted in the winds of public opinion polls, and their interest in doing anything for Canada was virtually nil as long as they weren't threatened by a divided Right.